posted 23 March 2005 03:39 PM            

Km.t was not a slave society, most "slaves" were Asiatics.

posted 23 March 2005 03:40 PM            

quote:

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That top picture also includes Black Nubian Slaves paying tribute to the Egyptians.

Nice pictures, that show that the Egyptians were better than everyone else. <http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/smile.gif>

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The Egyptians and the Nubians in the top cannot hardly be diserned except for their garb.

The people in the pictures are not slaves.

Just tribute bearers

posted 23 March 2005 04:16 PM            

There can be no mistake that the Egyptians were aware of the differences between themselves and the Asiatics, whom 'some' people compare the modern Egyptian population with.

They were indeed very observative in their artwork. They even managed to capture the different looks of their neighbors, depending on what region they came into contact with.

posted 23 March 2005 04:50 PM            

So, it would be nice if you admit the truth, once in a while!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
Indeed pictures are worth a thousand words.

There can be no mistake that the Egyptians were aware of the differences between themselves and the Asiatics, whom 'some' people compare the modern Egyptian population with.

They were indeed very observative in their artwork. They even managed to capture the different looks of their neighbors, depending on what region they came into contact with.

[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 23 March 2005).]

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posted 23 March 2005 04:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ABAZA:
[B]All NON-EGYPTIANS were portrayed as different, and that includes Black Africans.

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Which "black Africans"?

posted 23 March 2005 05:17 PM            

Initially, in Dynasty 11-12 (ca. 2040-1783 BC), it was the Lower Nubian mercenary troops who figure in Egyptian art. These men were shown with black-painted skin but they had features indistinguishable from the Egyptians, who were painted uniformly with red brown skin. - Courtesy of nubianet.org

posted 23 March 2005 05:32 PM            

Here's an article by Somali muscian K'Naan:

WHO ARE WE.

"LAND OF THE BEGINNING"

I am going to attempt to convey the complexity of who my people are as simple as the subject permits. With straight forward language, facts and myth. I will assume you understand the reasons for the prior two by why "myth"? Because it is the morals in myth, and the message in a proverb, that orders to shape and form the magic of my people. And the magic, when concerning the calling of the original man's identity, is very important. I am also going to skim over the more accessible aspects of our history, e.g colonization and it's details, while I will probably touch on it's affects.

The earliest name for what is current day Somalia was the Land of Punt. To the ancient Egyptians, the Land of Punt, with it's houses raised up on stilts above water, was also known as Ta Nteru: "Land of the Gods". A place of profound beauty, the Land of Punt was incredibly rich with high quality entyw incense, frankincense, myrrh and precious gum. The first undisputed contact that the ancient Egyptians documented with the Puntites, the people from the Land of Punt, was Queen Hatshepsut's famous expedition to East Africa.

The Queen, who was well known for wearing a false beard in order to portray herself as a man, sent 5 large ships to Punt. There were said to be a lot earlier expeditions but Hatshepsut's is the most well documented, with the Queen herself leaving clear inscriptions on the wall of her temple at Deir el-Bahri, that "the ships were laden with the costly products of the Land of Punt and with it's many valuable wood, with very much sweet-smelling resin and frankincense, with quantities of ebony and ivory..."

The Puntites were described in the inscriptions and portrayed in the murals as, people with "dark reddish skin, Egyptian features, long hair" who wore "long to medium goatee". This is an accurate description of much of the people in the East African region, but if you consider it word for word, along with the vastness of available high quality incense, it is more so than anything else, a description of the Somali. The old Puntite.

Much of ancient Egypt's borrowed customs are accredited, by the murals and hieroglyphics of the Egyptians themselves, to this region, and to these people. As the Egyptians considered the Puntites their ancestors. For example, the burning of the precious gum, (Luubaan) for spiritual purposes, which rulers would order from the horn, is still used today by the Somali, for that very purpose. It is also a fact that the Ancient Egyptians, in their murals would portray the Puntites as they portrayed themselves, with similar features and mannerisms.

Another important cradle of civilization was also, "Ta Seti" ('Land of the Bow) which was Nubia in both northern Sudan and Southern Egypt. The people of Nubia were said to be famous archers, hence, the Land of the Bow. What is interesting in learning the origin of the Somali people is that, the ancient Egyptians had a collective name for both The Sudan and Somalia, which was, "Ta Khent" meaning, "Land of the Beginning" or "Ancestral Land".

In many aspects, Africans as a collective are without a doubt, the most diverse people in the world. And East Africa, holds the record as the most diverse region in the continent. It is understood that, the more diverse a population is, the longer they have had to differentiate. Thus easily proving East African's as the ancestors. And if that doesn't do it, in 1997 the oldest human fossil was found in a village 140 miles north east of Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. The fossil being 160, 000 years old, and a proper human, puts the claim that we are descendants of Neanderthals and apes to rest. We are however, and always have been, your forefathers.

Much of Western history did not attempt to document Africa's ancestors, and when Europe decided to carve up and colonize Africa, what little history they had of us had to be gotten rid off. No one could justify raiding and raping a people and a place that contains their origin. So Africa, in it's entirety had to be faceless, and without past.

posted 23 March 2005 06:26 PM            

Tomb of Senefer 18th dyansty

posted 23 March 2005 09:15 PM            

quote:

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Interesting indeed, so now you expect us to believe THE WORDS OF A SOMALI MUSCIAN,

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Err, as everyone but you is intelligent enough to understand.... the article is NOt proferred as an 'expert' opinion of an Egyptologist on Punt.

Obviously. It would be a trivial matter to site Diop, Gardiner, Yurco, Budge and even Petrie or Breasted regarding references to Punt, Ta Neter, aka God's land and the iconography thereof.

It is equally simple to link to km.t iconography of Puntites....

The value of the article is that it offers a perspective of a modern inhabitant of Ta Neter.

Apparently you have an issue with that, but then, you have m a n y issues as we've all come to learn.

posted 23 March 2005 09:35 PM            

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Originally posted by ausar:
Yes, that is Tut-ankh-amun.

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posted 23 March 2005 09:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:

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posted 24 March 2005 03:13 AM            

House of Birds House of Plants
Thutmose III
Home

ANIMALS AND PEOPLE ON THE DEIR EL BAHRI RELIEFS

by Emmet Sweeney
African Animals in Punt?

The above section (on the Queen of Sheba) completes my response to the major points raised by Lorton. There remains the task of responding to the evidence presented by John Bimson all those years ago. Bimson concentrated his attention on Hatshepsut's temple at Deir el Bahri and sought to prove from this that Punt had to be in Africa (Eritrea in fact was his place of choice).

Before saying another word, it should be remembered that this poses Bimson with the problem outlined directly above. But again, like Lorton, this was an issue he failed to address.

Nevertheless, the Deir el Bahri reliefs do show a number of African people and apparently African animals, such as at least one rhinoceros and a giraffe. For Bimson, and for many of his readers, this was decisive evidence in proving an African location for the territory: Decisive enough to make them ignore or forget all the other evidence that clearly located Punt/the Divine Land in Palestine/Phoenicia. But if Punt really was Phoenicia, why then such an African influence? Why the large amount of space devoted to seemingly African animals and people with clearly negroid features? This is a question that cannot be ignored. Velikovsky himself suggested that the African elements were imports, and stressed that the Puntites themselves were not negroes but Semites or Hamites. This in fact is true. The Puntites look very much like the Egyptians and, curiously enough, sport long pointed beards of a type worn in Egypt only by the pharaoh. (It should be noted also in this regard that the earliest Egyptian monarchy, the Horus kings of the First Dynasty, claimed to have originated in Punt: and this incidentally provides yet another dramatic connection with Asia; for, as David Rohl has illustrated (Legend: The Genesis of Civilisation: 1998), the god Osiris, from whom the Egyptian royalty claimed descent, was not only specifically linked to Byblos, but was himself in origin a Mesopotamian god named Asar. Rohl also shows, in the same place, how the peoples of Lebanon also traced their origin back to Mesopotamia).

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/solomonszoo1.html

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
Indeed. Contrast these Puntites with Asiatics!

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posted 24 March 2005 04:04 AM            

quote:

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Rasol wites:
There is still some debate regarding the precise location of Punt, which was once identified with modern Somalia. A strong argument has been made for a location in Southern Sudan or modern Eritria-Ethiopia.

It was assumed that the trading parties always traveled by sea but now it seems possible that some traders sailed south along the Nile and then overland, making contact with Puntites in the vicinity of the 5th cataract. - Oxford History of Ancient Egypt.

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posted 24 March 2005 04:51 AM            

Israelite Identity [177]

and place: The land where Hatshepsut went,
and Imhotep came from is the land of Israel,
Canaan or Phoenicia rendered in Egyptian as
Punt or the Holy Land of God, but displaced
by Egyptology into the unexplored wilderness
of the deep south.37)
§ 13. Pyramid building started out as
public make-work projects for employing the
famine-stricken population of Egypt, who received

––––––––––––––

be called the Egyptological Auschwitz lie in analogy to the
denial of German neo-Nazis that Auschwitz ever happened.
What suits an anti-Semitic mind is the downfall of Israel as
mentioned on the Merneptah stele, being correctly dated by
Immanuel Velikovsky, Ramses II and his Time (German 1979)
pp. 210–218, to the first decades of the Babylonian Exile
(ca. 570 B. C. E.), but generally misdated more than 600 years
earlier, and believed to be the one and only mention of Israel
in Egyptian history. This absurd belief is geopolitical nonsense,
since desert-surrounded Egypt has always had Israel as its most
prominenteastern neighbor in peace and war.
37) Appropriately, this disorientation in time and place,
which amounts to mental sickness, was discovered in 1952 by
a professional psychiatrist, well-versed in ancient history: the
greatImmanuel Velikovsky, From Exodus to King Akhnaton
(N. 3) chapters 3 and 4.[b] Some fifteen years later, the German
Archaeological Institute in Cairo published a seemingly exhaustive
monograph entitled “Punt” by Rolf Herzog (1968), in which
Velikovsky’s important thesis that identifies Punt with Solomonic
Israel (Phoenicia)[b] is simply missing. Both Velikovsky and Herzog
(pp. 19 and 20) [b] rely on inscriptions clearly defining Punt as
Egypt’s neighbor to the east, which can be reached by land and
sea via Byblos or Elat, and according to Richard Lepsius quoted

[21]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[178] Ed Metzler

grain rations under a government relief program.38)
Joseph advised pharaoh Zoser to buy surplus
grain cheaply during the seven fat years, and
to sell it with a profit during the seven lean years.
After the people had spent all their money,
cattle, and land to buy food they sold themselves
into slavery, just to survive.39) In order to keep
this work-force busy, they were told to transport
stones from one place to the other, pile them up
at their destination, and make something as
useless as bigger graves for their kings. They

––––––––––––––

by Herzog (p. 31), there is no doubt that the Phoenicians
(Latin Poeni or Punici) derive their name from Punt (Hebrew Put
or Canaan). Another name for Punt in Egyptian is T3-NTR
(To-Netzer) “God’s Land”, a literal translation of Eretz Israel
(ha-Aretz Asher ha-El, whence Asherah El and Israel), also trans-
literated into hieroglyphs as RTNW (Artzenu) “Our Land”, see
Ed Metzler, Roots of Kabbalah (N. 14) Note 37.
38) Thedaily ration of grain for a gang (Minyan) of ten
workmen was an Omer full of ten portions (Manah), distributed
by their foreman (El “Sar” or Shofet “Soped”), cf. Exodus
2, 14 (Sar we-Shofet) and 18, 21–22 (Sarey Assarot we-Shafetu);
Ed Metzler, Mosaical Metrology (N. 5) p. 16; and Rosalie David,
The Pyramid Builders of Ancient Egypt (London 1986) p. 117.
39) As a matter of fact, the grain monopoly that led to the
centralization of the Egyptian state was created by collecting
a 20-percent food tax (Genesis 41, 34–36 and 47, 24–26), which
is, of course, the cheapest way of “buying”. In the end, Joseph
had a huge work-force at his command (Genesis 47, 14–23), that
could be used for pyramid building.

http://moziani.tripod.com/pyramids/ammm_1_5.htm

posted 24 March 2005 05:05 AM            

quote:

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I had previously believed, following Velikovsky, that Hatshepsut's expedition had sailed in the Red Sea and disembarked at the southern port of Ezion-geber. For a number of reasons however I now hold that the expedition did not sail in the Red Sea at all, but, as convenience and commonsense would dictate, in the Mediterranean alone. The inscriptions at Deir el Bahri make it quite plain that the ships came ashore immediately beside the 'myrrh-terraces'. Since these terraces are one and the same as what the Egyptians otherwise termed 'the steps' (ie. the Lebanese mountains), it is evident that the expedition disembarked on the Lebanese coast. This is further confirmed by the fact that the Egyptians were greeted by, among others, a row of men called 'chiefs of Irem'. I am in agreement with Velikovsky in viewing these as emissaries of king Hiram of Tyre, a close ally of Solomon.[9] But why would chiefs of king Hiram be present in Ezion-geber? Furthermore, I concur with Velikovsky in identifying Perehu 'a chief of Punt', who greeted the Egyptians, with the biblical Paruah, whose son Jehoshaphat was appointed by Solomon to administer the territory of Issacher (I Kings 4:17). But Velikovsky claimed that Paruah and his son were rulers of Ezion-geber, a statement which is quite simply untrue. They were rulers of Issachar and that region lay in northern Israel, not far from the Lebanese coast.

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/solomonszoo1.html

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[This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 24 March 2005).]

posted 24 March 2005 08:37 AM            

quote:

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Rasol wites:
in the Old Kingdom the goods from Punt had been brought to Egypt on an overland route, whereby this was controlled by the people from Kerma

that in the New Kingdom again ships were sent to Punt, until Nubia was fully controlled by Egypt; thereafter, the goods came also on an overland route,

The people products brought back to Egypt point to an African origin: giraffes, myrrh along with Twa [Pygmies]- which excludes south east Arabia, as has sometimes been suggested. Thus Punt must have been located somewhere in Africa perhaps south Sudan or north Ethiopia. - ancientegypt.org

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quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
What is interesting is the acknowledgement that Punt aka Ta Neter aka Land of the Gods, is in East Africa.

Some are unaware that this is no longer in serious dispute.

They want Punt to refer to Palestine or Mesopotamia for a variety of 'reasons'.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
What reasons do they base their claims on?

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quote:

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rasol writes:
Wishful thinking mostly. They grasp on to tidbits like the cedarwood gathered from Lebanon. Some of them want Sargon the Akadian to be the Scorpian King, and so forth... they need to counter primary reference from the Km.t[rm.t] to interior African origins. Punt was the best they could do. And, as we've shown...it's a non starter.

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Let's not waste time and ruin a good thread by introducing pseudo-science as a form of spam.

posted 24 March 2005 09:58 AM            

Africans have always been diverse, due to adaption to different climates and the fossil record supports that fact.

There are Africans with substantial Eurasian admixture who still have broad skeletal features [like the Lemba Bantu], and Africans with little Eurasian admixture with elongated features [like the Borana of Kenya].

Genetically the Borana are 'even more' African than the Lemba and some other Bantu groups.

Moreover fossils that resemble elongated East African groups from antiquity are much more plentiful than fossils that can be related to the 'broad' physiogamy.

The Somali and other cushite speakers are the descendants of the original East African populations. Don't fall prey to Eurocentric thinking.

posted 24 March 2005 11:24 AM            

I know many of the cushitic speaking folks of the afro-asian group have some form of mixture,AND I READ that is was one clan of the lemba that have some other racial admixture or could it be that that the hebrews were really black first and that is why you clan might have been apart of original black hebrews,but there are many scholars who believe that the hebrews were really white.

some in the afro-centric groups believe that the hebrews were black but i do not, but i am aware some were black just like some arabs are or latinos.

posted 24 March 2005 12:26 PM            

quote:

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you got me wrong,i know that some africans do have narrow noses,i am just saying that most do not.

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We're not talking about most Africans, we are talking about Punt. The manner in which you respond to discussion of Somalia seems to suggest some hostility? Maybe I'm reading something that isn't there?

quote:

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there is no way i could fall in the euro trap

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With friendship and great respect, I think you already have.

If you think that Cushites are any less African than Bantu, or that Nubia is somehow more African than Somalia, or that Nubia is an appropriate pan-ethnic classification for Nile Valley Blacks, or that the original Km.t were 'Sudanic and not Nilotic', then you may have already fallen into a trap and not know it.

I've often wondered if, when Eurocentrists inevitablably concede their last bitter points of obstinency re: the African origins of Nile Valley Civilisation....

Will the response of Africans be to battle over the Egyptian vs. Nubian, Sudanic vs. Nilotic origins?

posted 25 March 2005 11:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

Tomb of Senefer 18th dyansty

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posted 26 March 2005 05:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by windstorm2005:
A good question is were the asiatics as "mixed" during the time of the kemetans as they are now?...

It's interesting that most of the images of asiatics that the kemetans left us show them with white skin--some with blue eyes, I think--though among modern inhabitants of the arabian peninsula, these features are fairly rare...(?)

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posted 27 March 2005 06:26 PM            

Left image: Asiatic captives, and Kemetians.
Right image: A Kemetian without a wig.

posted 27 March 2005 09:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:

Nice Fro Who is that?

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Just an ordinary Kemetian or should I say commoner. Kemetians depicted commoners doing all types of work, from military service to weaving, agricultural work, etc. These depictions of commoners often go unnoticed, but they paint very realistic images of Kemetians and Kemetian life.

posted 27 March 2005 09:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:

Left image: Asiatic captives, and Kemetians.
Right image: A Kemetian without a wig.

[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 27 March 2005).]

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Only one picture shows up, was there meant to be two?

Also, who is this suppose to be and where did this pic come from??

posted 27 March 2005 09:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by anacalypsis:

Only one picture shows up, was there meant to be two?

Also, who is this suppose to be and where did this pic come from??

thankx

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posted 28 March 2005 11:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
It must be your browser, I don't have any problems seeing the images. I have already mentioned earlier what the images are about, and the museum photos, courtesy of Claremont Colleges.

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posted 29 March 2005 03:30 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by anacalypsis:

Supercar still can't see the lefthanded pic, is it from a website that I could possilbly view it from?

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Okay Anacalypsis, apparently people have different browsers with different capabilities. There doesn't seem to be any problem on my end, but for your convenience, this is what the left-hand pic. should look like:

I hope this helps.