posted 14 March 2005 12:25 AM            

The official homepage for the persecuted Nubian people in Egypt and in Nubian Nile Valley
Nubian National Alliance works with a network of international and local humanitarian organisations, working for alleviation of suffering and eliminating discrimination and oppression against Nubian population in Egypt.

The Nubian symbol

Welcome to the homepage
of Nubian people
Nubian National Alliance a Nubian organization established in 1999 in Diaspora in accordance with Scandinavian rules. It is obvious that serves as a networking organization for the rights of Nubian people in Egypt and in the Nubian Nile Vally, its aim to demand the Nubian people's rights for return back to their national homeland, the land of our ancestors. We also paving a way for an international support for the Nubian cause while Nubians are fighting the oppression in the cities and in small towns in Egypt. We are part of the Nubian popular movement seeking an end to injustice, repression and racial discrimination.

Here is a little more about
Nubian case in a special
order.
Welcome to nubiatoday.info! We have created this web site to connect the Worldwide Community of Nubians. Please take the time to have a look around this site. And give your input on the latest topics of discussion. Also, check out the great content that is available throughout the site and learn a little more about Nubian Traditions. Most important of all, enjoy yourself. Visit us often and remember that this is the place Where Anyone Can Share a Home.

We really do hope you’ll join us and make a contribution to our recall efforts. Make a contribution by logging on to your friends. Perhaps your contact will convince more people to take action NOW!
www.nubiatoday.info
the trustful site for the persecuted Nubians in Egypt, and in their own historical homeland.The Egyptian authority has perpetrated itself a heinous crime against Nubian rights. The number exceeds the limits of counting. Our Appeal to Nubian people for unity, peace and shared responsibilities, and for unified political objectives. For the sake of peace, we are willing to die so that our children may live in peace and enjoy this good land that God has given to us.

An ancient Nubian proverb
A popular Nubian saying and widely known among Nubians, that when God created Nubia, He laughed in delight. In recent decades, there has been little harsh in this beautiful land to make a Nubian smile.

The wonderful thing that anyone could notice that the Nubian people to be among the most cordial and open people in the world.

The Nubian people's property for sale!
Selling the Nubian lands for Oil Sheikhs !
Never has been a more dangerous threaten Nubians and their culture with extermination just like nowadays. The current consideration of government in Cairo of inventing new ways of ethnic cleansing, the first to drive the Nubians awy to a range of mountains, then from the whole areas of the Nile valley, second step of creating a new instrument that give into effect, and to fill up an alien people of another race as much as can take the Nubia land. This will provide one more means for the government of Egypt to collect more Nubians in other confinment to camps, so that incompetent policy like that can mismanage it. Never has been a time where a government had been more disingenuous in deceiving and misleading the Egyptian public and other oppressed people in the region .

The historical sufferance.

The Nubians faces the barriers of
racist institutions!
Thus, the question of Nubian identity in a physical or a genetic sense is as easy as the question of their cultural heritage. Their physical appearance, as a tall dark-skinned people of proud bearing, remains distinctive in Egypt, however, despite their Egyptian nationality, the Nubian still continues to refer to a black minority in the cities with signs of the term "berberenes" which be used among Egyptians. Today a term of the berberenes is a part of the Egyptian culture!. The word of Nubian turned derisively into berberene and attained a pejorative meaning. We do know the prejudice exercised towards Nubians since 1820, a year of invasion by ruler of Egypt.In spite of difficulties, the Nubians' own sense of their identity is strong.

Like their American counterparts, the Nubians have had to struggle to overcome not only the racial discrimination or ethnic cleansing , but also the social stigma of historical sufferance of slavery that ended in the nineteenth century. Both Nubians and American blacks have been victims of uncomplimentary references and stereotypic attitudes on the part of some of their numerically superior fellow citizens. The obvious comparison between these two minority groups must be overdrawn . The persistence of exclusively Nubian towns and villages, repositories of a distinct culture, has helped our people at all times to retain a sense of whom they are.

Unfortunately the attitudes are changing, caused by the constraction of the heinous project of the "High Dam" The black American is now attempting to discover a heritage but all obsecured by epochs of white domination. Obviously, this is a Nubian problem. The modern Nubian face the barriers of discriminatory legislation and barricades of racist institutions that have been the lot of American black men. The Nubian people with the crippling effects of institutionlized racism, have not been able to establish peacefully a place for themselves in Egypt. Today Nubians compare unfavourably with the Egyptian society at large by every social and economic standard.

Why Egypt is not a democratic State?

The civil code of Egypt is based on racism, nationalism and discrimination according to national origin. Local customs and traditions have been mixed with the social fabric to produce a mutated social order full of stifling customs and double standards that turn many Nubians away from the country, particularly youth. Even though some of the unconstitutional laws are implemented, in the absence of the democratic system, they do little in the way of performing their role of protecting the Nubian people as a community, and only add to the oppression that the Nubians endure.

Racism remains pervasive in Egypt
Racism remains pervasive in Egypt, though the Nubian population is estimated to three million . As evidence of the systemic effects of racism in Egypt, the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination has called special attention to protect and guard the rights of the oppressed people. While Egyptian law states that racism is a punishable crime, but Nubians are suffering the most. Few Nubians have the education or economic resources to pursue their rights, and government of Egypt keeping silent or saying nothing for the Nubian rights and the right to back to their ancient home land.

Many African Brazilian groups began to work with the government to seek legal redress for racially motivated crimes, using the 1988 Constitution and secondary legislation to promote racial equality. The 1988 Constitution also provides for the direct incorporation of international human rights instruments, including the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (Race Convention), into the domestic legal order.

Despite the legislative of Egypt's constitution and the country's ratification of Race Convention, almost nothing the seriousness of racial discrimination in the criminal justice system has done, and little attention has been paid to the possibility of finding civil remedies for racial discrimination. Consequently, no racial-discrimination cases actually come to court of which if, then should be punished.

Drawing on our experience with other African descendent communities in Latin America and the strategic human rights charter and lawyering within the Inter system, IHRLG should trains Nubian lawyers in using UN mechanisms to combat racial discrimination in Egypt and invites human rights leaders and Nubian political activities to participate in an annual international advocacy training program, Advocacy Bridge, helps local leaders amplify the voice of the Nubian communities within the international arena, and facilitates networking between Nubian groups.

We demand an active program for Nubians and include Establishing Nubian NGOs for effective participation in any World Conference Against Racism and inviting an activist from Nubia to voice her experience of racial discrimination in IHRLG's Voices Forum held during the World Conference. Training Nubian lawyers in ways to incorporate the language, techniques and procedures of the Race Convention into their legal work and advocacy efforts. As part of our overall efforts to help Nubian groups combat racism, we ask the IHRLG propose an article on racial discrimination for inclusion in the Inter -African Democratic charter.

Our demand and the initiative of other NGOs involved in the document elaboration process, resulted in IHRLG's proposal becoming Article 9 of the Charter adopted by the Organization of African States

Racism in the TV of Egypt and in
Ministry of Foreign Affairs!
We will admit that it is a rather strange kind of racism in Egypt, but it is still heinous racism. A Nubian was extremely qualified for a certain job in TV, and a member of TV committee nominated him as a broadcaster, but chairman of the committee has blocked him by a message has recieved from a person in high position after his nomination

posted 14 March 2005 01:28 AM            

I must admit that old Egyptian cienma in the past was filled with negative streotypes about Sai'idi people and Nubians. Either the Nubians were seen as a honest[but stupid] Bawwab[for the khawagas this means a gate keeper or doorman],and the Sai'idi was seen as simply an idiot. I tell people I am a Sai'idi and they just laugh at me. This happens everywhere. The movies have much to do with this.

Know in Aswan its a slighty different story. Most of the elected officals there are not Nubians but members of the Ababda or J'afra. Nubians and J'afra have been known to be rivals in the past,and the Ja'afra are actually bedouin Arabs that came into Aswan and stole land from the Nubians.

Racism and Discrimination does exist in America. Its not just directed towards the Nubians either and exist also aganist rural and lower class Egyptians by the elite afrangi.

Plus I have never heard of the Egyptian goverment pushing Nubians into the mountains or promoting ethnic cleansing. I think they might be confusing the Nuba people of the Korfodan Hills with the Nubians living from Aswan to Sudan.

Berberine is something that Arabs called Nubians. This is not a common expression amongst Egyptians.

posted 14 March 2005 02:01 AM            

=============================================

A part of apartheid system is working in Egypt.

In1986 the Afrikaner nationalists-the creators of apartheid system in South Africa, declared that the system of apartheid must end. No political theory has been Universally condemned than apartheid . Yet the whites of South Africa are not a uniquely racist , they went wrong because every previous step along the fatal road had seemed to work. In the apartheid dogmatic doctrine, which has as its basis the threat to the entire foundations of world culture and humanism. Apartheid system takes many forms : racial , political , religious and economic.
This collection of extremist ideologies highlights the one thread that units the various brand of the extremism. on important role is played by radical nationalism and racism. Striving for the supermacy of the " Herrenvolk" ( Nation of Lords ) over the black people in South Africa / or at least over the Africa Continent. Apartheid facism wanted to destroy or bind under servitude the conquered African Nations. Sadly enough, the African Nubians continue to suffer from discrimination and persecution in their own land, the land of African pharaohs in the Nubian Nile Valley.
In regard to the African Nubian people. Egypt is very similar to South Africa and as bad as to be used in the past memories of the South Africa. Egypt has already displayed strong activity in bringing Nubians on a level of cultural genocide, as height as were tormented by complete deprivation and emaciation. Egypt's attitude towards the Nubian tragedy was characterized by ruthless and showing no mercy , and expressed in the spoilt provisions that was given to Nubian children during the transference days between 1963-64. Nubian children at public schools were at that time suffering the effect of Nasserism ideas. Teachers spoke Arabic. Children who could not do so were liable to be mocked or punished. One justification for this policy was that it give the Nubian children full access to the world's cheapest tex-books and impoverished children in the educational system and in the centre of thought.
Egypt as sovereign state have often failed to take responsibility for their own citizens, and leaving the victimes with no protection. Egypt must demonstrate that sovereignty as accountability as both a national obligation and a global imperative. An Egyptian plan of deportation the entire Nubian population from their ancient home-land to other places, was preparing day and night. The idiotic scheme was regarding the Nubians were becoming more and more integrating themselves. The ultimate aim was finally the quick and totally liquidation of the Nubians from the Nile valley region. Although this was to have taken place in stages in order to camouflage the real aim and on the vicious tactical reasons, and not to reveal prematurely the ultimate designs .
From the time of deportation in August 1964, and up to date, the Egyptian oppressors' plan was destroying the land of Nubian black pharaohs on the Uplands Nile Valley, by terrorzing the Nubian societies , and by dispersing the remaining Nubian population to the state of oblivion, or bring the whole Nubian population under control as being of subhuman. In the long range this was to be continued within the framework of a great plan to evacuate and liquidate three millions of Nubian people, who are peace-loving people . In the end , the General Plan of Dr., Mahmoud Abu-Zaid Minister of Public Works, water Resources and Irrigation of Egypt, turned unto the so-called final solution of the Nubian people's question "Endlösung der Nuben frage" in the Tushki, the heart of Nubia Land.
The history of the Nubian people is one the world's most tragedy that having experienced about the atrocities, genocide, oppression and ethnic cleansing and even on the other believers particularly, the ancient people of Egypt, [ the Copts ]. For all that. Can we build to-gother a peaceful future ? We hope ! Well basically it's essential humanity of people everywhere. That there is an authenticity to culture and identity, but it should be used as a means of creating an inclusive harmony that recognizes, with the integrity of different cultures and different identities. But at the same time the recognition that what we have in common as human beings, is so much more essential and more important and the focal point of all cultures of all pursuits political or otherwise has to be the human being for every ones. Finally, we need from Egyptian Polticians to vote in favour of giving Nubians powers over their own affairs . The Nubia which has been under Egyptian rule since 1820. We should to have more say over to suit our interests as well as promotion of the Nubian language.

posted 14 March 2005 02:18 AM            

I know that the police brutality in Egypt is terrible,and its mostly in the rural areas in Upper Egypt and villages in the Delta where this takes place. The average baladi Egyptian suffers.

I am not exactly sure about apartheid,but definately racism exists within the elite circles of Egypt. This is echoed in populuar culture in Egypt,and you often see Egyptian women trying to bleech their skin.

posted 14 March 2005 02:42 AM            

quote:

---

ausar wrote:

Berberine is something that Arabs called Nubians. This is not a common expression amongst Egyptians.

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posted 14 March 2005 02:47 AM            

quote:

---

The term that I'm familiar with, is Berberi, which is used to refer to someone with very dark or black coloring. Sometimes, they say the two words together, such as "Berberi Aswad", but I was not sure if it meant the Nubians or Black Africans, per se. It could also, be a reference to the Black Berbers of Siwa. This would be a good question for someone who still lives in Egypt and is more familiar with these expressions.

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The slur for a person with really dark coloring in Egypt is 'hebab'. Berberine just means barbarian,and I have never heard it used with the term iswad. My relatives that live in Boulaq have never heard these words used against the Nubians. The term 'hebab' has been used mostly for Suthern Sudanese,and sometimes Nubians.

posted 14 March 2005 02:49 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
I can see where discrimination exists amongst the elite classes in Egypt that are close to Europeans socially. Personally, I think the worst discrimination I ever saw in Egypt was mainly directed to the balady people living in the cities. For instance, the community where my parents and other relatives live in Boulaq Abu Ela has many Nubians living right along with us Sai'idi people. We don't discriminate or look down on Nubian people. Infact, my skin color is darker than many Nubians like Mohammed Mounir. People often forget that many Nubians are equally as mixed with Turkish,Romanian,and Arabic people.

I must admit that old Egyptian cienma in the past was filled with negative streotypes about Sai'idi people and Nubians. Either the Nubians were seen as a honest[but stupid] Bawwab[for the khawagas this means a gate keeper or doorman],and the Sai'idi was seen as simply an idiot. I tell people I am a Sai'idi and they just laugh at me. This happens everywhere. The movies have much to do with this.

Know in Aswan its a slighty different story. Most of the elected officals there are not Nubians but members of the Ababda or J'afra. Nubians and J'afra have been known to be rivals in the past,and the Ja'afra are actually bedouin Arabs that came into Aswan and stole land from the Nubians.

Racism and Discrimination does exist in America. Its not just directed towards the Nubians either and exist also aganist rural and lower class Egyptians by the elite afrangi.

Plus I have never heard of the Egyptian goverment pushing Nubians into the mountains or promoting ethnic cleansing. I think they might be confusing the Nuba people of the Korfodan Hills with the Nubians living from Aswan to Sudan.

Berberine is something that Arabs called Nubians. This is not a common expression amongst Egyptians.

---

that is true,that many nubians in egypt are mixed with outsiders,but in sudan most do not have some form of mixture with outsiders,but even the ones in egypt i heard tend to be on average darker than the average ethnic black egyptian.these are the stories i hear when black americans go to egypt.

posted 14 March 2005 02:52 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ABAZA:
Personally, I find some of the claims by the Nubians to be a little far-fetched, such as this example of Egypt having an Apartheid policy. This seems to be similar to what the American Copts have been doing abroad.

=============================================

[b]A part of apartheid system is working in Egypt.

In1986 the Afrikaner nationalists-the creators of apartheid system in South Africa, declared that the system of apartheid must end. No political theory has been Universally condemned than apartheid . Yet the whites of South Africa are not a uniquely racist , they went wrong because every previous step along the fatal road had seemed to work. In the apartheid dogmatic doctrine, which has as its basis the threat to the entire foundations of world culture and humanism. Apartheid system takes many forms : racial , political , religious and economic.
This collection of extremist ideologies highlights the one thread that units the various brand of the extremism. on important role is played by radical nationalism and racism. Striving for the supermacy of the " Herrenvolk" ( Nation of Lords ) over the black people in South Africa / or at least over the Africa Continent. Apartheid facism wanted to destroy or bind under servitude the conquered African Nations. Sadly enough, the African Nubians continue to suffer from discrimination and persecution in their own land, the land of African pharaohs in the Nubian Nile Valley.
In regard to the African Nubian people. Egypt is very similar to South Africa and as bad as to be used in the past memories of the South Africa. Egypt has already displayed strong activity in bringing Nubians on a level of cultural genocide, as height as were tormented by complete deprivation and emaciation. Egypt's attitude towards the Nubian tragedy was characterized by ruthless and showing no mercy , and expressed in the spoilt provisions that was given to Nubian children during the transference days between 1963-64. Nubian children at public schools were at that time suffering the effect of Nasserism ideas. Teachers spoke Arabic. Children who could not do so were liable to be mocked or punished. One justification for this policy was that it give the Nubian children full access to the world's cheapest tex-books and impoverished children in the educational system and in the centre of thought.
Egypt as sovereign state have often failed to take responsibility for their own citizens, and leaving the victimes with no protection. Egypt must demonstrate that sovereignty as accountability as both a national obligation and a global imperative. An Egyptian plan of deportation the entire Nubian population from their ancient home-land to other places, was preparing day and night. The idiotic scheme was regarding the Nubians were becoming more and more integrating themselves. The ultimate aim was finally the quick and totally liquidation of the Nubians from the Nile valley region. Although this was to have taken place in stages in order to camouflage the real aim and on the vicious tactical reasons, and not to reveal prematurely the ultimate designs .
From the time of deportation in August 1964, and up to date, the Egyptian oppressors' plan was destroying the land of Nubian black pharaohs on the Uplands Nile Valley, by terrorzing the Nubian societies , and by dispersing the remaining Nubian population to the state of oblivion, or bring the whole Nubian population under control as being of subhuman. In the long range this was to be continued within the framework of a great plan to evacuate and liquidate three millions of Nubian people, who are peace-loving people . In the end , the General Plan of Dr., Mahmoud Abu-Zaid Minister of Public Works, water Resources and Irrigation of Egypt, turned unto the so-called final solution of the Nubian people's question "Endlösung der Nuben frage" in the Tushki, the heart of Nubia Land.
The history of the Nubian people is one the world's most tragedy that having experienced about the atrocities, genocide, oppression and ethnic cleansing and even on the other believers particularly, the ancient people of Egypt, [ the Copts ]. For all that. Can we build to-gother a peaceful future ? We hope ! Well basically it's essential humanity of people everywhere. That there is an authenticity to culture and identity, but it should be used as a means of creating an inclusive harmony that recognizes, with the integrity of different cultures and different identities. But at the same time the recognition that what we have in common as human beings, is so much more essential and more important and the focal point of all cultures of all pursuits political or otherwise has to be the human being for every ones. Finally, we need from Egyptian Polticians to vote in favour of giving Nubians powers over their own affairs . The Nubia which has been under Egyptian rule since 1820. We should to have more say over to suit our interests as well as promotion of the Nubian language.

[This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 14 March 2005).][/B]

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why do you find the racism in egypt far-fetched,you always talk about folks should listen to the folks who live in your state.
by the way the heart of nubia is in the sudan,and the nubian who wrote this article did mention 3 million nubians egypt.thanks for finding it for me,i had it but it was lost.

thank goodness the 6 million nubians in the sudan have more power to defend themselves much better,like most of the other africans there.

posted 14 March 2005 03:04 AM            

quote:

---

that is true,that many nubians in egypt are mixed with outsiders,but in sudan most do not have some form of mixture with outsiders,but even the ones in egypt i heard tend to be on average darker than the average ethnic black egyptian.these are the stories i hear when black americans go to egypt.

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On average this tends to be true. In Aswan there are Egyptians darker than many Nubians. The Nubians in are divided into the Kenuzi,Fadijay,and Mahas.

An elite group of Nubians called the Kushaf that live in Aswan and Edfu claim they are of Turkish desent. I hope you understand that Turkish soliders were sent to parts of Aswan and southward and many either intermarried or raped Nubian women.[Kola Boof's father is a Kushaf]

The maagraab Nubians are mixed with Hungarian mercenaries brought into the Sudan by the Mamelukes. The Dongolan Sudanese have mixed with Mamluks who fled into the Sudan.

quote:

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another thing as well i have a book on modern nubians in egypt,and it was said that the racism is not as harsh in egypt,like it is in america,but i find that hard to believe.

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Which book would this be? Is it the book by Thomas Hagg and Robert Fernea?

Well, Egypt has its fair share of racism like anywhere on this globe. Ethiopians often look down upon the Nilotic Anuk people that live there. Northern Sudanese call southern Sudanese derogatory names. Dinka people in Southern Sudan call Northern Sudanese 'hyenna sh$$.

This is nothing that I would compare to Jim Crow or aprtheid.

posted 14 March 2005 12:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by kenndo:
that is true,that many nubians in egypt are mixed with outsiders,but in sudan most do not have some form of mixture with outsiders,but even the ones in egypt i heard tend to be on average darker than the average ethnic black egyptian.these are the stories i hear when black americans go to egypt.

another thing as well i have a book on modern nubians in egypt,and it was said that the racism is not as harsh in egypt,like it is in america,but i find that hard to believe.

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Well from what I've seen the Nubians are, on average, darker than the Saeedi, but that's not always the case. I saw some fair skinned Nubians and dark Saeedis. But to be honest, they all looked mixed to me. I could be wrong though.

What I found interesting is that more than race, religion seemed to be the dividing factor in Egypt. Both Saeedis and Nubians I spoke to told me the were black, and it was never because I asked. They would often just walk up to me and start talking to me, and this happened in Cairo as well as Upper Egypt.

If there was anything bad said about anyone else, it was usually because one person was Christian and the other was Muslim, but it was very rare that I heard anything bad about anyone in the country. One of my tour guides was Nubian and he said most Nubians were Christian.

Of course I'm not speaking from much experience at all, but if there are cultural problems in Egypt, I'd say they're religious first then maybe race second. The reason is simple. Most Egyptians I saw were black by their standards and mine. I know some here would not agree with me, but I'm just going by what I saw and heard. They did not call the white tourists brother, cousin, my color, etc, yet they would hollar these things at me so much it might has well have been my name. If you don't believe me, send a couple of black tourists to Egypt in a crowd of white people.

posted 14 March 2005 04:55 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Well from what I've seen the Nubians are, on average, darker than the Saeedi, but that's not always the case. I saw some fair skinned Nubians and dark Saeedis. But to be honest, they all looked mixed to me. I could be wrong though.

What I found interesting is that more than race, religion seemed to be the dividing factor in Egypt. Both Saeedis and Nubians I spoke to told me the were black, and it was never because I asked. They would often just walk up to me and start talking to me, and this happened in Cairo as well as Upper Egypt.

If there was anything bad said about anyone else, it was usually because one person was Christian and the other was Muslim, but it was very rare that I heard anything bad about anyone in the country. One of my tour guides was Nubian and he said most Nubians were Christian.

Of course I'm not speaking from much experience at all, but if there are cultural problems in Egypt, I'd say they're religious first then maybe race second. The reason is simple. Most Egyptians I saw were black by their standards and mine. I know some here would not agree with me, but I'm just going by what I saw and heard. They did not call the white tourists brother, cousin, my color, etc, yet they would hollar these things at me so much it might has well have been my name. If you don't believe me, send a couple of black tourists to Egypt in a crowd of white people.

While I was there, I was reminded more of ethnic struggles in an urban American city instead of racial problems. For example, Black Carribean Americans vs. African Americans. Both groups recognize that they are the same race, but there are cultural differences. The controlling powers (white people in the US, elite Arabs in Egypt, etc) live in the same country, but not amongst the people.

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that is what the media like you to see,a few years ago the nubians i seen on tv shows or books were alot of unmixed nubians but just few years ago they keep showing the ones who do look like they had some form of mixture and others who do not look really black,i was surprise too see this but i realized they keep showng nubians in egypt and northern sudan but when they show the central and southern sudan most of the ones i have seen look unmixed like it was years ago when i look at nubians in egpyt,so be careful with the media because they would show you mostly that type and say they were always like this like the egyptians and that is not the case,but so far like i said most nubians would be unmixed and most would be like that in the sudan where most live at and alot live in the noba hills and they are called hill nubians,some lived and others fled to southern sudan and some live outside the sudan and egypt,even some in northern sudan are unmixed ,but even the the ones who do have some form of mixture many of them still look black.there are still some unmixed ones even in egypt but even most of the ones who have some form of mixture in egypt still look black too,but i realize there are some in modern egypt and sudan who do not look black but they still call themselves black,but let's be careful because the media and not just the west have an agenda.as we know as well there are blacks that look like they almost have some mixture but still look like full blooded at the same time and they are unmixed.

THE BOOK that i have read on modern nubians in egypt was by robert fernea and his wife elizabeth fernea called nubian ethnographies.

pictures of unmixed looking or unmixed nubians in the sudan. http://dignubia.org/keepout/photos/00009/large_00009.jpg http://dignubia.org/keepout/photos/00007/large_00007.jpg http://dignubia.org/galleries/photography.php?this_image=13&cat_id=00003

posted 14 March 2005 05:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ABAZA:
What Are Their Beliefs?
The Nubians were converted to Christianity during the sixth century. They remained so until the gradual process of Islamization began taking place from the fourteenth until the seventeenth centuries.[b] Today, the Nubians are virtually all Muslims. However, their traditional animistic beliefs (belief that non-living objects have spirits) are still mingled in with their Islamic practices.
http://www.ksafe.com/profiles/clusters/8030.html

[This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 14 March 2005).][/B]

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let's not forget than even when they became christian,most did not until later and many still practiced the older faith and the christian faith at the same time,even the old nubian faith is still practice with islam.many black africans do this.

posted 15 March 2005 06:49 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:

What I found interesting is that more than race, religion seemed to be the dividing factor in Egypt. Of course I'm not speaking from much experience at all, but if there are cultural problems in Egypt, I'd say they're religious first then maybe race second.

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You are correct. Egyptians are much more concerned about religious issues than racial ones.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

One of my tour guides was Nubian and he said most Nubians were Christian.

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Yes, in the Medieval Ages. However today, virtually all Nubians are muslims.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

Most Egyptians I saw were black by their standards and mine.If you don't believe me, send a couple of black tourists to Egypt in a crowd of white people.

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The problem is that your(American)standart of blackness is different from Egyptian one. Egyptians would never called themselves black(aswad). The most popular "raqcial" terms are qamhawy(literally "wheat-colored" = tanned, light brown) and asmar("dark" = medium or dark brown). Sometimes is also used the term abyad(white). I don´t know how do you look like but according to what you wrote before, you are not quite black, so being Egyptian you would be probably called "asmar".

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

The controlling powers (white people in the US, elite Arabs in Egypt, etc) live in the same country, but not amongst the people.

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Who are the "elite Arabs" in Egypt?

posted 15 March 2005 12:37 PM            

You seem obcessed with racial purity in people. Many of the modern Nubians are obviously mixed with Arabs,Turks and Albanians. Many modern Egyptians themselves are mixed with Arabs,Armenians,Turks,southern Europeans,etc. Mixing goes on and happens,and has in all these areas for quite some time.

The people of the Nuba hills are not Nubians. They are Kofadan speaks and modern Nubians and Nilotic Southern Sudanese are Nilo-Saharan speakers.

I hope you realize that Bedouin Arabs during the Middle Ages that were cast out of Egypt were also brought into parts of the kingdoms of Nubia. These bedouins mixed with Nubians and its apparent. You also have bedouin Arab tribes in Northern Sudan with the same complexion as southern Sudanese.

Do you not also realize that many Christian Egyptians from Alexandria and other regions migrated to the Sudan? Don't you think these groups would have intermingled with the Nubians?

posted 15 March 2005 01:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayazid:

The problem is that your(American)standart of blackness is different from Egyptian one. Egyptians would never called themselves black(aswad). The most popular "raqcial" terms are qamhawy(literally "wheat-colored" = tanned, light brown) and asmar("dark" = medium or dark brown). Sometimes is also used the term abyad(white). I don´t know how do you look like but according to what you wrote before, you are not quite black, so being Egyptian you would be probably called "asmar".

---

Yes, I understand that the concept of race changes as you go to different places. It's really pointless to debate what "race" someone is because the concept doesn't physically exist. So I'm saying the same thing now that I've always said. If the Egyptians I saw moved to America, most of them would be black, whether they liked it or not, because their African ancestry is clear. And unless they were wealthy, they would live in neighborhoods with African Americans who looked like them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayazid:

Who are the "elite Arabs" in Egypt

---

Please don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say. I'm not talking about real people. In America, if a group of white people are talking about black people, they are most likely talking about people who live in the same country, but not in the same neighborhoods.

posted 15 March 2005 03:21 PM            

Also, I'm an Egyptian and I have lived most of my life in the U.S., but nobody ever mistook me for an African American or a Black person. The fact is most Egyptians who live in the U.S. or Europe, are often mistaken for other Arabs, Southern Europeans (Greeks, Italians, Spanish,and Turkish), Hispanics, or Indians/Pakistanis.
There may be a few, who are very dark or from Nubian origin that would look like African Americans, but that number would be quite small.

The comparison between African Americans and Native Egyptians seem to me to be quite a stretch.

posted 15 March 2005 03:48 PM            

quote:

---

If someone like Anwar Sadat, who is quite dark from the average Egyptian, can be President, then the so called Egyptian Ruling Elite can not be that racist. BTW, Sadat's mother was not Egyptian, but Sudanese. Also, his wife who is half British/Egyptian, looks very European and not a Mulatto.

---

Jahan Sadat's Egyptian side was mixed with Persian. Before this Sadat was married to a Egyptian women. Yes,there were and are racist things said about Sadat such as his biography written by Mohammed Heikal.

quote:

---

Also, I'm an Egyptian and I have lived most of my life in the U.S., but nobody ever mistook me for an African American or a Black person. The fact is most Egyptians who live in the U.S. or Europe, are often mistaken for other Arabs, Southern Europeans (Greeks, Italians, Spanish,and Turkish), Hispanics, or Indians/Pakistanis.
There may be a few, who are very dark or from Nubian origin that would look like African Americans, but that number would be quite small.

The comparison between African Americans and Native Egyptians seem to me to be quite a stretch.

---

Well, the people Kem-au was talking about were in Luxor-Aswan. These people are not Nubians and many could pass for ''black'' in America.

These people even exist in areas like Middle Egypt and in parts of the Delta as well. Most of them tend to live in Southern Upper Egypt.

posted 15 March 2005 05:38 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Kendo, the way you write makes it very hard to understand your postings. You might consider at least spacing your setences.

You seem obcessed with racial purity in people. Many of the modern Nubians are obviously mixed with Arabs,Turks and Albanians. Many modern Egyptians themselves are mixed with Arabs,Armenians,Turks,southern Europeans,etc. Mixing goes on and happens,and has in all these areas for quite some time.

The people of the Nuba hills are not Nubians. They are Kofadan speaks and modern Nubians and Nilotic Southern Sudanese are Nilo-Saharan speakers.

I hope you realize that Bedouin Arabs during the Middle Ages that were cast out of Egypt were also brought into parts of the kingdoms of Nubia. These bedouins mixed with Nubians and its apparent. You also have bedouin Arab tribes in Northern Sudan with the same complexion as southern Sudanese.

Do you not also realize that many Christian Egyptians from Alexandria and other regions migrated to the Sudan? Don't you think these groups would have intermingled with the Nubians?

---

I Will take your advice on that.i started doing spacing before.

Now hill nubians do existed so i have to disagree with you on that one,and let's not forget in the some books on modern nubia and early african history some nubians did fled to southern sudan to avoid the arabs.

YES i realized that many nubians in egypt are mixed,that is what i have said,but in sudan most are unmixed but there are some who do have some form of mixture,so i do not disagree with the egypt part,SO TO ME MANY MEANS MOST AND IN THE SUDAN it is not the case.

IN southern nubia there was less mixing with outsiders than other parts of nubia in the early modern times but many did took on some arab culture to avoid constant fighting,and most nubians in history lived in this part of nubia in medieval and early modern times.these nubians are arabized but still are nubians and they did not become black arabs and brainwashed like the black arabs.

Let's not forget that nubians fled to southern nubia AND SOME OTHER PARTS to escape the arab craziness.

nubians could be found in axum too they just did not stay in the nile valley as you know.
AM i obessed with racial purity?maybe but i know there are alot of folks obessed with racial mixture like alot of arabs and others i would mention here and let's say i do not like it.

Now here is the info on hills nubians,there are alot of them,maybe about 700,000 to maybe a million by now since 1990 who knows?,and the sudan population is growing fast.

I AM surprise that you did not know about the hills nubians,but i did told you that i have done research over the past 10 years.
IN the nuba hills the nuba and hill nubians live side by side. the nuba speak a different language so you are right,but hill nubians are really nubians.

as you know the early noba are nubians that came to the nile valley in ancient times but the nuba of the nuba hills are different and are not nilo-saharan like the noba of the nile.

Here is info on hill nubians and the nuba of the nuba hills.

Nuba Survival
An impartial and independent organisation dedicated to promoting the cause of the Nuba People of Sudan.



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Nuba Vision

Volume 1, Issue 3, February 2002

Nuba Languages and History:
Who is related to who in and outside of the Nuba Mountains and did they come from anywhere else?

Robin Thelwall, Calgary

A Bit about myself

I first went to the Sudan to take up a post as lecturer in Phonetics in the English Dept at Khartoum University in July 1966 after two years postgraduate studies in this field at Edinburgh.

In my reading up about the languages of the Sudan, which attracted me because there were so many of them, and so many had had hardly any descriptive work done on them, I read about the complexity of the linguistic situation in the Nuba Mountains.

In December 1966 I took a lift, with my wife, with an anthropologist friend, Lewis Hill, who was going by Landrover to Bara and El Obeid, where he would put us on a lorry for Kadugli. One of my students, Abdulla Ibrahim Abdalla Kumodo was in Kadugli and we had arranged to meet him there. We stayed in the government rest house which was quite busy. The weather at that time of the year was fine and the Jebels looked most attractive with good grass and trees in bloom.

I met up with Abdulla and we spent several hours sitting in cafes at the market place. He would try and identify a few of the many people we saw passing. Finally we asked one passerby if he would sit with us and tell me a few words in his language. I had a standard wordlist of 100 items for fieldwork and he turned out to speak a language that he called Logorik. I discovered on returning to Khartoum that this was a variety of what the scholarly literature called Daju and had several related languages in the Mountains. Logorik (also known as Liguri) was spoken to the north east of Kadugli near Hajar el Mek.

It turned out that Abdulla’s family lived in Hajar el Mek and on later visits we stayed with him and his very hospitable family, consisting of his father who ran a sewing machine on the veranda of one of the merchant’s shop in town and his mother and stepmothers and brothers and sisters of whom there always seemed a crowd and always a new youngster crawling around the house.

I pursued further research on Daju and continued by working on varieties spoken near Lagowa and later in Darfur at Nyala and south of Jebel Marra in the Wadi Azum. Also during my work in Darfur I worked on varieties of the Nubian language group (Birgid and later Midob) and did a little work on some "Hill Nubian" languages spoken in the northern Nuba Mountains. I had always been interested in history and later came into regular contact with those archeologists working on the early Sudan. This led me to try and make historical sense of what is known of the languages of the Sudan and their relationships for the understanding to some little degree of the past history of languages in Sudan and perhaps of the past history of the peoples. Unfortunately language history is not exactly the same as ethno-history, but you can’t do the one without some idea of the other, and vice versa.

So what follows is a sketch of what linguists know about the historical relationships of the languages of the Nuba Mountains and what we may infer, and perhaps speculate, about the past of the speakers of those languages. The sources that Suleiman Rahhal mentions in his outline about the Nuba peoples and languages in "The Right to be Nuba" have been superseded over the years since the late 50s and early 60s, but have not been made easily available to the general reader.

A Bit about African language classification

The most significant new account of the relationships of all the languages in Africa was made by the American Joseph Greenberg in a series of articles published after 1945 and collected and revised in a single volume published in 1955 and revised somewhat in 1966. Since that time a large amount of work has been done in the recording and description of languages all over Africa. So, although there are still a large number of languages still almost undescribed (including most of the languages of the Nuba Mountains) we do have just enough material to revise Greenberg’s outline in a number of areas

One of the problems affecting most of the classifications before Greenberg is that many of the fundamental ideas about the different ethnic and linguistic groupings were influenced by old European ideas of race including the use of such terms as Hamitic and Semitic (and even Hamito-Semitic) and Negroid. Greenberg made one crucial change by trying to get away from "ethnic" or racial labels and replacing them with geographical labels which, other things being equal, should be more neutral.

Greenberg proposed four major language families for all of Africa (also called phyla after botanical classifications): Niger-Kordofanian (covering languages spoken from West Africa to East and South Africa including the very numerous Bantu sub-group and some languages of the Nuba Mountains), Afroasiatic (covering Arabic, Berber of North Africa, a large number of languages in Ethiopia and the Horn of Africa and a group including Hausa around the Lake Chad area), Khoisan (which includes languages spoken in Namibia and South Africa) Nilo-Saharan (mostly in the Sudan and Chad but also as far west as Mali and into Ethiopia and East Africa, including the very numerous Nilotic sub-group). Within Nilo-Saharan Greenberg proposed a large sub-group - Chari-Nile - which has subsequently been revised out of existence. The model of Nilo-Saharan that I will use here is that developed by M.L. Bender as a result of his own work over the last 35 years and his use of new publications over that time. I will also base my analysis on some of my own work on the Daju language group and the Nubian group. Full references are available to anyone who wishes to contact me.

A Bit of History

Evidence for the history of the Sudan is extremely limited before the 1800s with the major exception of the Nile Valley. We know quite a lot about the Kerma, Napata, Meroe and Nile Nubian civilisations although we do not understand Meroitic and are not sure of its relationship to other present-day language groups of the Sudan or Africa. Reliable scholars have rejected the possibility of Meroitic being related to Afroasiatic languages (the nearest geographically is Beja). Recent attempts to review the situation incline towards it being part of Nilo-Saharan, but this is still unproven. We also know of political states in Aksum in Northern Ethiopia, in Kanem and Bornu in eastern Nigeria; of the Funj state in the Blue Nile and the Daju, Tunjur and Fur "states" in Darfur as well as the relatively recent Kingdom of Taqali in the Rashad area of the Nuba Mountains. The Nuba Mountains only figure in indirect ways - perhaps as illustrations on Egyptian walls of wrestlers or certain hairstyles and facial scarring. Also as slaves in Egypt and other countries outside the Sudan.

A Bit of a Problem!

In scholarly writing there is almost no-one who now confuses Nubia or Nubian with Nuba or Nuba Mountains. In Arabic, and particularly in Sudanese usage the terms seem to get confused. There is no ethnic group in the Nuba Mountains that uses this term for themselves. The problem is that we have almost no archeological evidence or ethnic history for the regions west of the Nile, from Aswan to Malakal, which clearly links to the Nile states. So any claims about links between Nuba (Mts) and Nubia or Nubians (except for the Hill Nubian languages which are discussed below) are speculative.

How to simplify the complexity of the Nuba Mountain Language Situation

Of the about fifty languages spoken in the Nuba Mountains (I am of course talking about the situation that persisted at least until the late 70s) we classify them into members of two or perhaps three language families - Nilo-Saharan and Kordofanian (sub-family of the Niger-Kordofanian family). Of course in addition there is Arabic which could not have been spoken in the area prior to the Muslim invasions of Egypt in the 700s (Common Era) or the first century AH and there are also speakers of Fulani and some other West African languages. All the other languages of the Mountains well predate that period and in most cases were spoken there from time immemorial. The Kordofanian languages consist of four groups: Heiban, Talodi, Rashad and Katla - these names are based on their geographical centres (proposed by Thilo Schadeberg) and differ from names used in previous literature. The Kadugli Group was earlier classified by Greenberg as part of Kordofanian but removedfrom that relationship by Schadeberg and is currently considered probably part of Nilo-Saharan. The Kordofanian sub-groups are located in the southern and eastern areas of the Nuba Mountains. The Kadugli Group is located in the south east central fringe area near Kadugli.

The rest of the Nuba languages are classified as part of a major sub-group of Nilo-Saharan called East Sudanic. Relatives to these languages outside the Mountains include the various Nilotic groups and some smaller groups including Tama of Darfur, Nera of Eritrea and the Jebel groups of the Upper Blue Nile.

The "Hill Nubian" and Daju languages spoken in the Mountains have their major relatives outside the Mountains and we can reconstruct some details of their history and as a result propose that they each came into the Nuba Mountains to settle among the existing Nuba populations.

We are very confident that Nobiin (and later Dongolawi) came to the Nile from a centre of dispersion in Darfur-Kordofan which they occupied and controlled for perhaps 4000 years. We know that there were Nubian speakers on the Nile at least as early as the 500s CE and probably much earlier. The fact that the Hill Nubian languages have words for the days of the week dating back to Christian Nubian indicates that these languages were in contact at least during the Christian Nubian period which probably covers 500 CE - 1400 CE. This does not necessarily mean that the Hill Nubians did more than expand from central Kordofan into the Nuba Mountains during the period of Nubian political dominance from Aswan to Kosti (at least). But given the location of the Hill Nubian speakers (Dair, Dilling, Karko etc) along the NE edge of the Mountains it appears that they were "incomers" settling among the existing Nyima and Temein groups who were there before them, at least.

The Daju-speaking Groups

The Daju Language Group consists of at least six varieties spread out over a wide area from Eastern Chad to the Nuba Mountains.

We know that Southern Darfur was the centre of a Daju state perhaps as early as 1200 CE which was later displaced by the Tunjur and then the Fur who ruled from the Jebel Marra range. There are various traditions of Daju dispersion including a number of myths celebrating Ahmad el-Daj. Whatever the case, it is clear that the Daju controlled the area between southern Jebel Marra and perhaps as far east as the western edges of the Nuba Mountains. The Shatt and Liguri who are now well inside the Nuba Mts and north-east of Kadugli have been separated from the rest of the Daju for a long time (perhaps as much as 2000 years). The Daju of Dar el-Kabira and Lagawa are much more closely related linguistically to the Nyala and then to the Dar Sila Daju. This makes us think that there were two periods of Daju movement east, the first by the Shatt and Liguri and the second and perhaps related to the expansion and dominance by the South Darfur Daju, by the Lagawa Daju.

The arrival of Islam

Again the picture is very incomplete and uncertain. The following proposed "events" are based on the latest summary to be published this year.

639-640 AD Arab Muslim conquest of Egypt led by Amr ibn al ‘As for Khalifa ‘Omar. This begins the first Muslim contacts with Lower Nubians who are forced to pay tribute in slaves and livestock and promise no aggression against Egypt.

641-2 AD Islamic armies of ‘Amr ibn al`As reach the plain north of Dongola but fail to capture it.

646 AD Egyptians attack Nubia.

652 AD A "baqt" treaty established between Nubia and Egypt under Abdallah ibn Sa’ad ibn Abi Sahr. Nubia would provide 360 slaves each year and promise no attacks; Egypt would provide 1300 "kanyr" of wine. Old Dongola is captured for a period; conflicts noted between Makuria and Nobatia

950 AD Some Muslims reported at Soba

1275-1365 Period of warfare between Mamlukes and Nubians

1276 AD Mamluke Egyptians sack Dongola; forced conversion to Islam; King Dawud captured

1289 AD Last Mamluke military campaign against Dongola.

1317 AD Defeat of the last Christian king in Nubia and the first Muslim king Abdullah Barshambu on the throne in Dongola; "baqt" re-established; first mosque is built at Dongola

ISLAM REACHES THE CENTRAL SUDAN: Rise of Funj and Fur Sultanates

1504 AD The fall of Soba, capital of the last Christian kingdom of Alwa; the beginning of the

Islamic Funj Sultanate at Sennar.

Extracted from online draft: Historical Dictionary of the Sudan (3rd Edition) for subsequent Islamic chronology to the present. Forthcoming in Early 2002 by Richard Lobban, Robert Kramer and Carolyn Fluehr-Lobban, Scarecrow Press

What can we conclude?

We can propose "layers" of the Nuba language groups (and by implication their speakers) in terms of oldest inhabitants to most recent.

Oldest Kordofanian

Nyimang; Temein; Kadugli (perhaps representing and expansion of East Sudanic)

Daju Shatt & Liguri (perhaps as early as 100 BCE)

Hill Nubian (perhaps sometime between 300 and 1400 CE)

Most recent Daju Lagawa (perhaps as late as the 1300s)

The relationship between Kordofanian and the rest of Niger-Kordofanian is still not clear but the family has a time depth of a minimum of 6000 years.

The earliest date for the arrival of Islam in the Nuba Mountains is likely to be after the beginning of the establishment of Sennar, i.e. after 1504 CE

The only two groups for whom presence in the Nuba Mountains is within the last two thousand years are the Lagawa Daju and the "Hill Nubians". All other languages (and by inference people) are likely to have been in the Mountains for at least 2000 years or more.

Nuba Survival
PO Box 486
28 East Walk, Hayes
Middlesex, UB3 3WZ
United Kingdom

Telephone: +44 (0)20 8813 5831 e-mail: nubasurvival38@aol.com
http://www.nubasurvival.com/Nuba%20Vision/Vol%201%20Issue%203/7%20Language%20and %20history.htm

by the way some of merotic could be understood,and as we know more full nubians kingdoms existed during the 1600 a.d. until 1898,the funj kingdom was basic nubian but not all the way.