posted 25 February 2005 07:50 AM            

"...these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998) that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe."

What that says is that pre-historic East Africans were distinct from sub-Saharan Africans. So distinct in fact that their genetic legacy in East Africa causes modern populations to veer away from Africans and toward Eurasians. This is terrible news for Afronuts who believe that OOA lineages like E3b make non-Africans more African. In reality, the opposite is true. They make the Africans who possess them less African and more Eurasian --

Both genetically . . .

And skeletally . . .

posted 25 February 2005 08:41 AM            

quote:

---

. Sub-Saharan African populations have high levels of haplotype diversity within and between populations, relative to non-Africans.

---

quote:

---

Non-African populations have both a subset of the haplotype diversity present in Africa

---

This can be further refined to non-Africans possessing a subset of East African DNA.

Therefore it follows from this that East Africa is centrally located....as predicted by OUT OF AFRICA, and in no way supporting EuroDisney's wild eyed claims about 'caucazoids'.

Meanwhile never quoted are elements of the cited study that clearly undermine his delusions....

quote:

---

The pattern of haplotype variation and LD observed at the PLAT locus suggests a recent common ancestry of non-African populations, from a small population originating in eastern Africa.

These data indicate that, throughout much of modern human history, sub-Saharan Africa has maintained both a large effective population size and a high level of population substructure.

---

Genetic affinity between East Africa and the rest of Africa:

Africa harbours most of the human genetic diversity in the world. - Sarah A. Tishkoff & Scott M. Williams

Skeletal Affinity between Ancient and Modern Africans:
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1975 May;42(3):351-69.

New studies of post-Pleistocene human skeletal remains from the Rift Valley, Kenya.

Rightmire GP.
Prehistoric human crania from Bromhead's Site, Willey's Kopje, Makalia Burial Site, Nakuru, and other localities in the Eastern Rift Valley of Kenya are reassessed using measurements and a multivariate statistical approach. Materials available for comparison include series of Bushman and Hottentot crania. South and East African Negroes, and Egyptians. Up to 34 cranial measurements taken on these series are utilized to construct three multiple discriminant frameworks, each of which can assign modern individuals to a correct group with considerable accuracy. When the prehistoric crania are classified with the help of these discriminants, results indicate that several of the skulls are best grouped with modern Negroes. This is especially clear in the case of individuals from Bromhead's Site, Willey's Kopje, and Nakuru, and the evidence hardly suggests post-Pleistocene domination of the Rift and surrounding territory by "Mediterranean" Caucasoids, as has been claimed. Recent linguistic and archaeological findings are also reviewed, and these seem to support application of the term Nilotic Negro to the early Rift populations

Tutsi of Rwanda:

[color=green]

• Stature: 176 cm
  
• Head length: 198 mm
  
• Head breadth: 147 mm
  
• Face height: 125 mm
  
• Face breadth: 134 mm
  
• Nose height: 56 mm
  
• Nose breadth: 39 mm
  
• Relative trunk length: 49.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 74.5
  
• Facial Index: 92.8
  
• Nasal Index: 69.5[/color]

  
  Masai:

  [color=blue]

• Stature: 173 cm
  
• Head length: 194 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 140 mm
  
• Face Height: 121 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 137 mm
  
• Nose Height: 54 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 39 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 47.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 72.8
  
• Facial Index: 89.0
  
• Nasal Index: 72.0[/color]

  
  Galla(Oromo):

  [color=red]

• Stature: 171 cm
  
• Head length: 190 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 147 mm
  
• Face Height: 122 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 133 mm
  
• Nose Height: 53 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 37 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 50.3
  
• Cephalic Index: 77.6
  
• Facial Index: 91.5
  
• Nasal Index: 69.0[/color]

  Sab Somali:

  [color=gray]

• Stature: 173 cm
  
• Head length: 194 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 145 mm
  
• Face Height: 119 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 134 mm
  
• Nose Height: 49 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 36 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 49.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 74.7
  
• Facial Index: 88.5
  
• Nasal Index: 72.8[/color]

  Warsingali Somali:

  [color=navy]

• Stature: 168 cm
  
• Head length: 192 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 143 mm
  
• Face Height: 123 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 131 mm
  
• Nose Height: 52 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 34 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 50.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 74.5
  
• Facial Index: 94.1
  
• Nasal Index: 66.0[/color]
  

Source:

Jean Hiernaux

The People of Africa

pg 142

Too bad EuroDisney can't accept the conclusions in his own citations, and needs to distort them instead.

posted 25 February 2005 08:49 AM            

quote:

---

S. Mohammad writes: the [central] location of northeast Africans is referring to OUT OF AFRICA you moron! That study you cited says this but you did NOT post it, why?

---

quote:

---

Thought Writes:

In terms of mtDNA the ONLY substantial non-African lineage Somalians have is pre-HV at about 11%. EvilEurope would have us believe that M1 is Eurasian in origin and then try and inflate the Eurasian input in East Africa. There is still great debate on the origins of M1 , but the preponderance of the evidence leans to an East African origin.

In terms of the Y Chromosome, the Eurasian input is about the same, with the presence of haplogroup J at about 11% as well. This limited gene flow, which probably dates to the historic Arab period in no way implies that the original Somalians were Caucasoid. In fact Bantu speakers from Cameroon have R1b frequencies greater than 14%, does that mean the Bantu speakers from Cameroon are "Caucasoid"? In addition, given the fact that these Cameroonian's have MORE Eurasian genetic inputs than the Somali it is obvious that we cannot explain the narrow noses and faces in Somali by attributing it to gene flow from Eurasia during the pre-historic epoch.

In comparison African derived haplogroup E was found at a frequency of 24% in Greece.

---

quote:

---

Rasol wrote: In addition to the Somalis, the Cushites include the largely nomadic Afar (Danakil), who straddle the Great Rift Valley between Ethiopia and Djibouti; the Oromo, who have played such a large role in Ethiopian history and in the 1990s constituted roughly one-half of the Ethiopian population and were also numerous in northern Kenya; the Reendille (Rendilli) of Kenya; and the Aweera (Boni) along the Lamu coast in Kenya. The Somalis belong to a subbranch of the Cushites, the Omo-Tana group, whose languages are almost mutually intelligible. The original home of the Omo-Tana group appears to have been on the Omo and Tana rivers, in an area extending from Lake Turkana in present-day northern Kenya to the Indian Ocean coast.- countrystudies.us/somalia

---

quote:

---

Thought writes: Evil Euro, before we can take this debate to its logical conclusion we need you to define your terms. Please tell us specifically what a "Caucasoid" and "Negroid" are in a scientific sense?

---

posted 25 February 2005 09:40 AM            

S. Mohammad wrote:

quote:

---

Tanzania, Ethiopia origin for humans
By Paul Rincon

New DNA evidence suggests "African Eve", the 150,000-year-old female ancestor of every person on Earth, may have lived in Tanzania or Ethiopia.

A genetic study has shown that the oldest known human DNA lineages are those of East Africans. The most ancient populations include the Sandawe, Burunge, Gorowaa and Datog people who live in Tanzania.

Researchers found a very high amount of genetic variation, or diversity, between the mitochondrial DNA of different individuals in these populations.

Mitochondrial DNA is passed down exclusively through the maternal line. The longer a population has existed, the more variation accumulates in its DNA lineages.

"They are showing really deep, old lineages with lots of diversity. They appear to be the oldest lineages identified in Africa to date," said Dr Sarah Tishkoff, of the University of Maryland, US, who led the research.

Great resource

The so-called African Eve represents the ancestral mitochondrial genome that gave rise to all the different types seen in people today.

Several of the ethnic groups sampled in the study also live in countries surrounding Tanzania.

"It's entirely consistent with what we expected," said Dr Spencer Wells, a geneticist and author. "All the evidence is pointing to East Africa as the cradle of humanity."

Dr Wells added that the data ties in well with archaeological evidence of a long occupation of East Africa by modern humans and hominids.

Dr Tishkoff's team have collected mitochondrial DNA samples from 1,000 Tanzanians since they began their research in 2001.

Although the data comes from groups living in Tanzania, the Burunge and Gorowaa migrated to Tanzania from Ethiopia within the last 5,000 years.

SEARCH FOR HUMAN ORIGINS
Dr Tishkoff said Ethiopia was also a good candidate for the region where modern humans evolved.

One of the populations sampled in the study, the Sandawe, speak a "click" language like that of Khoisan people from southern Africa.

The Khoisan were previously thought to possess the oldest DNA lineages, but those of the Sandawe are older. This suggests southern Khoisan originated in East Africa, according to Dr Tishkoff.

"That is surprising, because it has been presumed that the oldest populations were in the south," said Professor Gyllensten. Some of the oldest modern human archaeological sites in Africa are in the south of the continent.

Dr Tishkoff said she planned to carry out further research to narrow down the most ancient East African lineages.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/science/nature/2909803.stm

Where are Evil Euros prehistoric East African Caucasoids?

---

posted 25 February 2005 01:00 PM            

The fact that the authors favor the latter position refutes you, because you said this

“On the Y-chromosome, judging by the language in the quote, we can assume that it's close to 50%. That's a whole lot of non-African DNA.”

So it actually refutes your argument that Somalis are hybrid mixtures of Eurasians and sub-Saharans. At least you’ve gathered this much and truly understand that you did in fact misinterpret the language in that quote.

*What that says is that pre-historic East Africans were distinct from sub-Saharan Africans.*

What that says is that northeast Africans genetically fissioned off from sub-Saharans, no more no less. That fissioning occured long before there was any E3b.

*So distinct in fact that their genetic legacy in East Africa causes modern populations to veer away from Africans and toward Eurasians.*

What are you talking about? Prehistoric-East Africans were completely African in origin, not non-African, so that makes non-Africans closer to pre-historic East Africans, not the other way around. Non-Africans are descended from a small group of East Africans who migrated out of Africa. That makes Eurasians more closely related to East Africans than to other world populations. You have everything backwards.

**This is terrible news for Afronuts who believe that OOA lineages like E3b make non-Africans more African. In reality, the opposite is true. They make the Africans who possess them less African and more Eurasian*

posted 25 February 2005 01:31 PM            

quote:

---

Evil...These guys know exactly what you are talking about

---

posted 25 February 2005 07:03 PM            

quote:

---

Rasol: Why does your chart use the term NearEast?

---

The chart I posted is from Cavalli-Sforza's History and Geography of Human Genes

Africans are grouped in the following fashion:

Bantu, Berber, East African, Mbuti, Nilo-Saharan, San, and West African, wherein East African is Ethiopian, and Near East is SouthWest Asian Semites.

In this case Ethiopians cluster with other Africans....[also notice that even the Bantu cluster in-between West Africa and Ethiopia].

quote:

---

It is pretty obvious that part of the Middle East belong to a hybrid stock like the Southern Europeans.

---

Racial hybrids are as much a myth as pure races and for the same reasons. Don't let EuroDisney bait you into calling Southern Europeans hybrids as a form of revenge argument.

Cavalli-Szforza and others found that Europeans collectively cluster IN BETWEEN AFRICA AND EAST ASIA.

Using Disney's logic you could then call the whole white "race" mongrel-hybrid, etc..

The game itself needs to be called out for the the exercise in ethnocentric grandstanding that it really is.

EuroDisney preys on unintelligent victims. He is hunting in the wrong place here.

posted 26 February 2005 07:52 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
So it actually refutes your argument that Somalis are hybrid mixtures of Eurasians and sub-Saharans.

---

Not at all. Both genetically and skeletally, Somalis are only part sub-Saharan African. The rest of their affinities are Eurasian. This is because pre-historic East Africans were more similar to non-Africans than to recently arrived "Blacks".

quote:

---

Eurasians who possess E3b are in reality more African and less Eurasian

---

posted 26 February 2005 08:11 AM            

quote:

---

E3b pulls East Africans like Ethiopians and Somalis toward Eurasians and away from sub-Saharan Africans .....

---

E3b is a Sub-saharan African haplotype. It is indigenous to Black Africa.

What E3b does in southern Europe is make it genetically heterogeneous and 'outlier', since they inherit this DNA as admixture from Black Africa.

The difference between E3b in Europe, and Benin Sickle Cell hapolotype in Europe....is that E3b originates among Blacks in East Africa and Benin Hbs originates among Blacks in West Africa.

Applying EuroDisney's E3b semantics equally to Benin Sickle Cell results in: Benin Sickle cell pulls West Africans toward southern Europeans and away from sub-Saharan Africans

Facts on Black African PN2 clade E3a and E3b:

quote:

---

The Y-chromosome clade defined by the PN2 transition (PN2/M35, PN2/M2) shatters the boundaries of phenotypically defined races and true breeding populations across a great geographical expanse. African peoples with a range of skin colors, hair forms and physiognomies have substantial percentages of males whose Y chromosomes form closely related clades with each other.

---

quote:

---

rasol writes: There are 18 known haplogroups or top level clades labeled A thru R. Clades have sub clades - which are children of their respective top level clade. The children are known as sister clades in terms of their relationships to each other. Those children in turn have children and so on.
E3a and E3b are sister haplotypes and children of of E3 (pn2 clade). E3, E3a and E3b all originate in Africa. The Pn2 clade is the dominment Y chromosome type in Africa.

The sister clades themselves do not determine phenotype. No clades do. There are elongated and broad African types of E3a and E3b.

Elongated and broad Africans likely diverge based on morphological adaptation to dry and humid tropical climates respectively. Accordingly both types are Black. The haplotypes originate after the base european asian and australian populations migrated out of Africa and so are not indigenous to those regions.

E3a and E3b appear to have split geographically with E3a carriers generally traveling central west and south, and E3b carriers traveling east north and west.

Haplotypes do not determine language [of course], but E3b is most closely associated with the Afrasan speakers an E3a with Bantu speakers - for instance.

And none of this has anything to do with European peoples [self labeled caucasians] other than that they inherit ithe haplotypes as African admixture either directly or indirectly thru either the Levantine corridor; Egypto/Nubian colonisation in the Agean and Southwest Europe from across the Maghreb during the Moorish occupation

---

E3A and E3b form the PN2 clade. A clade by definition is a common lineage or ancestry.

The difference between E3A and E3B [look closely now ]

E3a --- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, M2, P1

E3b --- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, M35

Constrast with the very different dominent Eurasian Haplotype R (red on the map)
R1 --- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, P14, M89, M213, M9, M45, M74, P27, 92R7, M207, UTY-1, M173.

Can EuroDisney show us how the Black African PN2 clade haplotypes are less related to each other, and how either of them would be more related to the radically divergent R1 Eurasian haplogroup?

Perhaps EuroDisney is arguing just to be making noise, having given up even trying to make sense?

posted 26 February 2005 08:21 AM            

quote:

---

Rasol: If Southern Europeans and the mixed Middle Easterners are not hybrids then what are they?

---

Middle Easterns are mixed, Southern Europeans are mixed. Even Northern Europeans are arguably mixed although to a lesser extent than Southerners and with different combinations of Non European DNA.

Haplotypes are most often 'labeled' by where they originate.

Southern European's have multiple lineages that originate in Europe, in the MiddleEast and in Sub-saharan Africa, and among physically distinct populations (mulitiple phenotypes) of whites, Blacks, and tawny West Asians.

That is the definition of heterogeneous, and that is what Southern Europeans are.

Bioathropologists have long known this, South Europe is hetergeneous genetically...

quote:

---

Although not homogeneous, the European landscape has been characterized by relatively short genetic distances between individual populations. Classic genetic markers have revealed a few clearly pronounced genetic outliers, such as the Greeks, the Basques, Sardinians, and the Saami (Cavalli-Sforza, Piazza, et .al 1993, 1994)

---

and skeletally....

quote:

---

one can identify NEGROID traits of nose and prognathism appearing in natufian hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and MACEDONIAN first farmers (Angel, 1972), probably FROM NUBIA (Anderson, 1969) via the unknown predecessors of Badarians

---

posted 26 February 2005 10:58 AM            

quote:

---

Not at all. Both genetically and skeletally, Somalis are only part sub-Saharan African. The rest of their affinities are Eurasian. This is because pre-historic East Africans were more similar to non-Africans than to recently arrived "Blacks".

---

You again have it backwards. Eurasians descend from a small prehistoric-East Africans population. Any skeletal affinities between the two would be due to the former being similar to the latter, not the other way around. Thats like saying sub-Saharan Africans look similar to African-Americans when any affinity between the two is due to African-Americans being similar to sub-Saharan Africans. Pre-historic East Africans existed before Eurasians so how can they[pre-historic-East Africans] be likened to some entity that proceded from them? The proper way to interpret that data would be to say that Eurasian resemble East Africans and not the other way around.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Nope. Look at the maps again. E3b pulls East Africans like Ethiopians and Somalis toward Eurasians and [b]away from sub-Saharan Africans. It doesn't pull the Eurasians toward the Africans. Sorry to disappoint you.[/B]

---

Tischkoff's study wasn't even dealing with E3b. E3b is East African in origin anyways, therefore Eurasians who have E3b would closer to East Africans, not the other way around As for biological affinities between Eurasians and East Africans, Keita said it best

...Molecular data suggest that the early modern human population began to divide between 150,000 to 115,000 years ago. This fissioning would have taken place in Africa. Modern human fossils dated to about 90,000 years ago are found outside of Africa, but the next genetic fissioning is believed to have occured after this, perhaps about 70,000 years ago(Bowcock et tal. 1991). Modern human remains in Asia, including Australia, are dated after this period, and in Europe, to around 35,000 years ago. Why are these data important? Because they indicate that the background genetic variation of Europeans, Oceanians, and Asians originated in Africa and precedes in time the presence of modern humans in these areas. Europeans and Asian-Australians did develop more unique genetic profiles over time, but had a common background before their average "uniqueness" emerged. This background is African in a bio-historical sense. Therefore, it should not be surprising that some Africans share similarities with non-Africans.

The Diversity of Indigenous Africans
S.O.Y. Keita
Department of Biological Anthropology
Oxford University

posted 26 February 2005 11:19 AM            

quote:

---

You again have it backwards. Eurasians descend from a small prehistoric-East Africans population. Any skeletal affinities between the two would be due to the former being similar to the latter, not the other way around.

---

In fact East African remains are highly distinct from European.

quote:

---

Tischkoff's study wasn't even dealing with E3b. E3b is East African in origin anyways, therefore Eurasians who have E3b would closer to East Africans, not the other way around

---

Benin sickle cell ties Southern European to WEST AFRICA in the same fashion.

posted 26 February 2005 11:46 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Benin sickle cell ties [b]Southern European to WEST AFRICA in the same fashion. [/B]

---

This is Evil Euros logic; if an Italian and Greeks has a particular haplotype that is Senegalese in origin[lets take E3a for example], Evil Euro is the type of person that would say Senegalese are more related to Italians and Greeks rather than say Greeks and Italians have Senegalese ancestry, though E3a, just like E3b is African in origin. Its called backward logic that makes no sense. In this case Evil Euro would say Senegalese are less African than other Africans, which is the exact same thing he's doing with East Africans. Eurasians share a common ancestry with East Africans that is East African in origin, there fore it makes far better sense to say that Eurasians are closer to East Africans. Evil Euro's logic fails him.

posted 26 February 2005 11:56 AM            

quote:

---

This is Evil Euros logic; if an Italian and Greeks has a particular haplotype that is Senegalese in origin[lets take E3a for example], Evil Euro is the type of person that would say Senegalese are more related to Italians and Greeks rather than say Greeks and Italians have Senegalese ancestry, though E3a, just like E3b is African in origin. Its called bacward logic that makes no sense.

---

Lol. It's also called 'bald faced' lieing, but really, what else can he do? In the face of evidence so devastating to his ethnocentric ideology he can only stare on blankly and lie thru his teeth.

posted 27 February 2005 07:59 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
What E3b does in southern Europe is make it genetically heterogeneous and 'outlier', since they inherit this DNA as admixture from Black Africa.

---

Then you should have no problem providing a Y-chromosome study that describes Southern Europeans as "Negroid" or even "Black", and an accompanying map that groups them near sub-Saharan Africans and away from Eurasians.

I'm waiting . . .

quote:

---

Benin sickle cell ties Southern European to WEST AFRICA in the same fashion.

---

Repeating irrelevant information that was dealt with long ago only confirms that you have no answers.

quote:

---

Lol. It's also called 'bald faced' lieing, but really, what else can he do?

---

posted 27 February 2005 08:05 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Nah, lying is an Afronut game. You even lie about how to spell the word "lying".

---

A map was posted showing that East Africans cluster with Nilo-Saharans, Bantus, and West Africans, and away from Eurasians.

posted 27 February 2005 08:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
What E3b does in southern Europe is make it genetically heterogeneous and 'outlier', since they inherit this DNA as admixture from Black Africa.

---

quote:

---

EuroDisney writes:
Then you should have no problem providing a Y-chromosome study that describes Southern Europeans as "Negroid" or even "Black"

---

quote:

---

I'm waiting

---

We're wating:

S. Mohammad writes: Another DNA test carried out by same people proved that the oldest males lineages came from East

Africa from the same populations. Where are Evil Euros prehistoric East African Caucasoids?

Thought Writes: Define your terms. What is a Negroid in a scientific sense? What is a non-Negroid "generalized

modern" in a scientific sense? Would a Tutsi be a Negroid or a non-Negroid "generalized modern" in a phneotypic

sense?

rasol writes: You can add that comment to your penchant for backtracking.

S. Mohammad writes: Wait, are you saying East Africans were "generalized moderns until 1000 B.C.??? Post some proof

for this idiot. Have you forgotten that there was in fact Negroids in East Africa in the form of Elongated East

Africans?

S. Mohammad writes: So why did you leave out the statement that they were also proto-Negroid in your original

statement? The answer is that you were distorting.

Supercar writes: how can E3b can have a caucasoid phenotype?

Thought Writes: Please define the terms "Caucasoid" and "Negroid" and lay out your chronology for the appearance of

these physical morphologies in East Africa?

Supercar writes: Remember, he still hasn't defined those terms that he carelessly tosses around all the time

rasol writes: All the better to keep tossing them around no?

Thought Writes: Evil "E" likes to keep things as obscure as possible.

YuhiVii writes: Mr.Evil your comeback is not convincing. How on earth you manage to gather that you were "proven

right" is rather scary.

Thought writes: he knows he is being dishonest.

rasol writes: Have you found your East African whites yet?

S. Mohammad writes: At least learn how to read the garbage you cite moron.

rasol writes: Any answers to Thought's or S. Mohammad's questions?

No?

Didn't think so. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001498.html

posted 27 February 2005 08:09 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
You again have it backwards. Eurasians descend from a small prehistoric-East Africans population. Any skeletal affinities between the two would be due to the former being similar to the latter, not the other way around.

---

posted 27 February 2005 08:15 AM            

quote:

---

TopDog writes: You again have it backwards. Eurasians descend from a small prehistoric-East Africans population. Any skeletal affinities between the two would be due to the former being similar to the latter, not the other way around.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
You're playing a feeble "chicken or egg" game to escape the inescapable

---

quote:

---

There's no basis for grouping all Africans in a "Black African" category.

---

quote:

---

Genetically, North Africans cluster with Eurasians, sub-Saharan Africans form their own cluster far away, and East Africans occupy an intermediate position.

---

quote:

---

This also holds true racially

---

Rightmire GP.
Prehistoric human crania from Bromhead's Site, Willey's Kopje, Makalia Burial Site, Nakuru, and other localities in the Eastern Rift Valley of Kenya are reassessed using measurements and a multivariate statistical approach. Materials available for comparison include series of Bushman and Hottentot crania. South and East African Negroes, and Egyptians. Up to 34 cranial measurements taken on these series are utilized to construct three multiple discriminant frameworks, each of which can assign modern individuals to a correct group with considerable accuracy. When the prehistoric crania are classified with the help of these discriminants, results indicate that several of the skulls are best grouped with modern Negroes. This is especially clear in the case of individuals from Bromhead's Site, Willey's Kopje, and Nakuru, and the evidence hardly suggests post-Pleistocene domination of the Rift and surrounding territory by "Mediterraneans", as has been claimed. Recent linguistic and archaeological findings are also reviewed, and these seem to support application of the term Nilotic Negro to the early Rift populations

The above passage quite specifically refutes your entire TROLL THESIS. No wonder then that you refuse to the address it. Lol@Disney who keeps talking but can't answer any questions.

quote:

---

which no amount of obfuscation on your part

---

posted 27 February 2005 08:42 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
You're playing a feeble "chicken or egg" game to escape the inescapable: There's no basis for grouping all Africans in a "Black African" category. Genetically, North Africans cluster with Eurasians, sub-Saharan Africans form their own cluster far away, and East Africans occupy an intermediate position. This also holds true racially, as skeletal remains of these populations are distributed in the same fashion. Again, I draw your attention to the maps at the top of this page, which no amount of obfuscation on your part will ever change.

---

Who said all Africans cluster together? Don't throw in a red herring. It was you who attributed this intermediate status to a mixture Negroids and Eurasians, which you have been refuted on. The study you cited as 'proof' that 50% of Somali Y-chromosones are non-African never supported your claims, which you acknowledged yourself in this thread. the study did not support a mixture of Negroids and West Asians. The 'intermediate' skeletal
evidence posted conflicts with the genetic evidence, East African racial features are native to Africa and are therefore African, not Eurasian. Any similarity between the two is attributed to the latter béing similar to the former, not through the former being partially Eurasian. Intermediate status is as simple as this.

posted 27 February 2005 09:27 AM            

quote:

---

unless you want to say that Negroids existed 115,000 years ago.

---

Frankly, that doesn't matter.

What matters is this:

However, all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions... these populations, fossil and modern, should NOT be considered to be closely related to Eurasians. - Jean Hiernaux

and this:

East Africans have distinct features like such as dark complexion and "supra-Negroid" limb ratios. There also is no evidence supporting claims that skin complexion and limb ratios are any less genetically determined than nose structure.

Keita finds no evidence of Africa-Europe/West Asia-Africa migrations to explain dynastic Egypt. Indeed, there is no suggestion early East Africans were ever cold-adapted.

According to Keita (1990) and Livingstone (1967), the Haratin are among the major descendants of the original Saharans. Close similarity in ABO serology between modern Haratin populations and those of ancient Egyptians. These Haratin are considered to be "Negroid" in physical type (Livingstone, 1967). Other serological tests have shown close affinity of certain Berber-speaking groups with tropical Africans in the high rates of cDe, P and V, and low Fy^a antigens(Keita 1990, Mourant et al., 1976, Chamla, 1980). They also group close with West Africans in the high incidence of HbC, HbS and the sickle cell condition (Livingstone, 1967).

In terms of phenotype and culture, the Southern Egyptians and Nubians are most closely related to Nile River peoples in the Sudan and to other peoples in adjacent regions. http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/anthro.htm

posted 28 February 2005 07:47 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
rasol writes: Any answers to Thought's or S. Mohammad's questions?

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Instead of wasting time collecting stupid Afronut questions, why don't you find me that Y-chromosome study I asked for? If everything you claim is true, there's no reason it should be taking you this long.

posted 28 February 2005 07:49 AM            

And skeletally . . .

posted 28 February 2005 08:24 AM            

quote:

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Instead of wasting time collecting questions

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To which you have no answers. lol. Let us know if you ever find any. Until then, I'm thru toying with you. Cheers!

posted 28 February 2005 08:30 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Both genetically . . .

And skeletally . . .

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Neither one of your maps prove that East Africans are hybrids and they reflect different studies. Quit spamming. Actually India is intermediate according to that map.

posted 28 February 2005 10:05 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Rossi:
The more and more I read from the posts here, and elsewhere, regarding the effort to resolve ethnic and geographic labels to the relatively new scientific genetic data, that is, the effort to correlate the three, the more I believe that to do so is an impossibility. Perhaps the amount of genetic diversity that is found within ethnicity and geography is to great to ever make statements regarding each that is scientifically valid? I am certainly beginning to believe that one cannot assign cultural affinity based on one’s genetic makeup. This is much like the saying because one is of Haplogroup I, one’s ancestors were Vikings.

Sorry this second post was a mistake

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posted 28 February 2005 10:25 AM            

quote:

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The more and more I read from the posts here, and elsewhere, regarding the effort to resolve ethnic and geographic labels to the relatively new scientific genetic data, that is, the effort to correlate the three, the more I believe that to do so is an impossibility.

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Correct! In fact it is non-sequitor to attempt to apply race-labels to genes, or phenotypes to haplotypes. I would hope this point is well illustrated by now.

This is why it is a mistake to simply reverse EuroDisney's rhetoric, and call southern Europeans hybrid or attempt to 'prove' negroid. If you do that, you play into the nonsense as opposed to seeing thru it.

What is more important to understand why his entire underlying premise is intellectually bankrupt. Only then, can such trolling be dispatched proper.

Frankly that is the real value...if any, of these threads.

posted 01 March 2005 07:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
In fact it is non-sequitor to attempt to apply race-labels to genes, or phenotypes to haplotypes.

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You mean like when you label E3b "Black" and attempt to apply a Negroid phenotype to it?

posted 01 March 2005 08:22 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
You mean like when you label E3b "Black" and attempt to apply a Negroid phenotype to it?

P.S. What's taking so long?

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You're post was refuted so why keep begging the question?

posted 01 March 2005 08:35 AM            

quote:

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You're post was refuted so why keep begging the question?

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posted 01 March 2005 08:42 AM            

quote:

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You mean like when you label E3b "Black" and attempt to apply a Negroid phenotype to it?

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No, I mean like when near everyone on this forum label you a distortion junkie and apply slow learner tag to you.

quote:

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Rasol wrote: EuroDisney is a slow and reluctant learner.

He is still painfully confused over the PN2 clade genetics.

Let's help him, by highlighting the parts that he missed first time round in bold face.

There are 18 known haplogroups or top level clades labeled A thru R. Clades have sub clades - which are children of their respective top level clade. The children are known as sister clades in terms of their relationships to each other. Those children in turn have children and so on.
E3a and E3b are sister haplotypes and children of of E3 (pn2 clade).

E3, E3a and E3b all originate in Africa.

The Pn2 clade is the dominment Y chromosome type in Africa.

The sister haplotypes themselves do not determine phenotype. No haplotypes do. There are elongated and broad African types bearing E3a and E3b - elongated and broad Africans likely diverge based on morphological adaptation to dry and humid tropical climates respectively. Accordingly both phenotypes are Black.

The PN2 clade haplotypes originate after the base european asian and australian populations migrated out of Africa and are not indigenous to those regions.

E3a and E3b appear to have split geographically with E3a carriers generally traveling central west and south, and E3b carriers traveling east north and west.

Haplotypes do not determine language [of course], but E3b is most closely associated with the Afrasan speakers an E3a with Bantu speakers - for instance.

And none of this has anything to do with European peoples [self labeled caucasians] other than that they inherit the haplotypes as African admixture either directly or indirectly thru either the Levantine corridor; Egypto/Nubian colonisation in the Agean and Southwest Europe from across the Maghreb during the Moorish occupation

E3a and E3b are African and form a common clade. A clade is a lineage. A lineage means a common ancestry.

There are even older Haplogroups such as A and B which predate Out-of-Africa and which are parent to the E Haplogroup.

E Haplogroup has 3 related Branches, E1, E2 and E3. E1 and E2 are found only in Africa. E3 is most common and in turn hs 2 sub-clades which are defined by a specific Y chromosome mutation called P2.

This is a genetic signature effectively.

Anyone who is Pn2 E3a or E3b is therefore a direct decendant of the common male ancestor. Somali, Zulu, Tutsi and Hutu and Taureg for example are all related substantially to each other, and they are not so related to Europeans. Europeans migrated out of Africa before the PN2 transition. Consequently, E3 Haplotype did not reach Europe for 20,000 years after its African origin.

This exposes the fallacy of applying a European race catagory, 'caucasian' or whatever to E3 Black Africans which is completely ridiculous and defies genetic logic.

The 'difference' between E3A and E3B

E3a - SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, M2
E3b - SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, M35

Contrast with Eurasian R1, a distinct and highly divergent clade:

R1- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, P14, M89, M213, M9, M45, M74, P27, 92R7, M207, UTY-1

Whereas E3b spread from East Africa into the middle east along with the Neolithic [the beginnings of agriculture], West Asian J spread into Africa primarily as a result of the Arab/Islamic expansion.

"Ancient Egypt" would therefore have been primarily E3 (a and b), and not J. And European lineages penetrate the delta region primarily from the Ptolemic and post Pharoanic times.

Black African phenotype - basically broad headed vs. longheaded, has little to do with E3a vs. E3b and more to do with adaptation to dry vs. humid climate, and since populations migrate, this issue is complicated and requires tracing population history.

Can EuroDisney explain how PN2 clade haplotypes are less related to each other, and how either of them would be more related to a radically divergent R1 haplogroup?

Can EuroDisney convince us that he truly believes something so bizarre and anti-scientific?

---

quote:

---

Thought Writes:
Evil Euro,

1) Define your terms. What is a "Negroid" in scientific terms?

2) In that E3a and E3b CLEARLY derive from a common source, lay out your chronology for the appearance of "Negroid" and "Caucasoid" phenotypes?

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What's taking so long?

posted 02 March 2005 07:57 AM            

Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid

posted 02 March 2005 08:07 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Those questions have already been answered:

Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid

Bottom Line

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Your "bottomline" post was answered, there was never anything to refute for everthing you said was refuted back at you. I have went over the intermediate status, Somali DNA, and the Lemba DNA. Your arguments never amounted to a point. Somalis aren't a hybridized population, Lemba have only 25% Middle Eastern mixture, and Ethiopian Amhara are the most "mixed" Ethiopians. What point have you made?

posted 02 March 2005 09:00 AM            

quote:

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Caucasoid race:
Term once commonly used in physical anthropology to denote a division of humankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descent and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type (e.g., Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid). Today the term has little scientific standing

Caucasian:

The term Caucasian race has in time acquired somewhat different meanings in different contexts. It is popularly used in North America to describe whites of northern, eastern and western European descent, usually excluding southern Europeans (often called "Latins")

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
A) Please define your terms, what does "Negroid" and "Caucasoid" mean TO YOU in a scientific sense?

---

quote:

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EuroDisney writes: They're not my terms, nor do they mean anything to me personally.

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If it means nothing to you, and means nothing to science, then your argument by definition has NO MEANING. So the question still stands.

quote:

---

Thought writes: Please lay out YOUR chronology for the evolution of these stated morphologies?

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quote:

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EuroDisney Writes: Again, I don't have a chronology.

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No, you don't. And you don't have an argument either.

posted 03 March 2005 07:56 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Caucasoid race:
Term once commonly used in physical anthropology to denote a division of humankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descent and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type (e.g., Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid). Today the term has little scientific standing

---

"Those who believe that the concept of race is valid do not discredit the notion of clines, however. Yet those with the clinal perspective who believe that races are not real do try to discredit the evidence of skeletal biology. Why this bias from the 'race denial' faction? This bias seems to stem largely from socio-political motivation and not science at all. For the time being at least, the people in 'race denial' are in 'reality denial' as well. Their motivation (a positive one) is that they have come to believe that the race concept is socially dangerous. In other words, they have convinced themselves that race promotes racism. Therefore, they have pushed the politically correct agenda that human races are not biologically real, no matter what the evidence."

posted 03 March 2005 07:56 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
[b]"Those who believe that the concept of race is valid do not discredit the notion of clines, however. Yet those with the clinal perspective who believe that races are not real do try to discredit the evidence of skeletal biology. "

-- Dr. George W. Gill, professor of anthropology at the University of Wyoming, and forensic anthropologist for Wyoming law-enforcement agencies and the Wyoming State Crime Laboratory.[/B]

---

Thought Writes:

Cranial diversity and clines are found in BOTH Europe and Africa. In addition, other phenotypic based traits such as hair and eye color cluster various populations. For example, based upon eye color and hair color Mediterranean Europeans cluster closer to Somalians than Swedes. This corresponds with the genetic data which links Mediterranean Europeans with Somalians and humans from Benin Central Africa via E3b1 Y-Chromosome and the Benin variant haplotype.

posted 04 March 2005 07:40 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Cranial diversity and clines are found in BOTH Europe and Africa. In addition, other phenotypic based traits such as hair and eye color cluster various populations. For example, based upon eye color and hair color Mediterranean Europeans cluster closer to Somalians than Swedes. This corresponds with the genetic data which links Mediterranean Europeans with Somalians and humans from Benin Central Africa via E3b1 Y-Chromosome and the Benin variant haplotype.

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You're a fool. Nothing in that paragraph has any anthropological or genetic validity. It sounds like the ramblings of a middle school drop-out...or a typical low-IQ Afronut.

posted 05 March 2005 08:29 AM            

The four Italians I posted are all verified ethnics, born in Italy, and untanned. Here are hundreds more:

Northern Italians

Central Italians

Southern Italians

True to Afronut form, you have no clue what Europeans really look like. Here's a good place to begin your education:

Gallery 1

Gallery 2

Gallery 3

posted 05 March 2005 08:57 AM            

quote:

---

What's that guy's name? Where was he born?

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Or just ring them up, tell them you don't care for the way they look:

Perhaps they too will conclude you're a fruitcake and ignore you.

Perhaps we all should.