posted 24 February 2005 01:14 PM            

2- Ancient Egyptian, is the parent language of Arabic, and many words in Arabic come from the AE language.

3- Coptic is a corruption of original AE language with a lot of Greek thrown in.

4- The reason, the Egyptians lost their language, is because of their WEAKNESS and COWARDICE when the Muslims came marching in!!

posted 24 February 2005 01:58 PM            

It is estimated that Coptic Christians constitute 10% of the population of Egypt and if they speak it at all it's at church...

2-what percentage of pre-islamic Egyptians spoke Coptic?

The percentage of Coptic speakers before Arab colonization would probably be 100%...

3-why and how Arabic replaced Coptic?

because Coptic was the vernacular before the Arab conquest. The speaking of the native Egyptian language was officially banned by the Arabs, and its use was permitted only in the liturgy of the Coptic Christian church...

4-did pre-Islamic Coptic contain Arabic word? how about semitic words?

posted 24 February 2005 02:21 PM            

Afro-asiatic Egyptian Language

Group 6

Robert Mirabelli, Meghan Pasco

Kevin Black, Dustin Carle

Introduction:

The Egyptian language is perhaps one of the most interesting and rewarding to study. Its long history and documented morphology helps to provide clues unique to a language that is extinct, providing information about the language itself, but also lending hints on neighboring language families.Egyptian is the sole member of the Egyptian subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic but also related closely to the Hamitic or North African languages and Semitic, or languages such as Arabic and Hebrew. (3) Its recorded history is longer than that of any other language, reaching as far back as almost 5000 years ago and as recently as 1400 AD. The languages native land is still well preserved, and strategically placed for language bleed-over; encompassing the north eastern portion of Africa with saturation in the Nile river valley. (2)

Lifestyle:

The Egyptian civilization existed over three thousands years, and it must be kept in mind that throughout such a time period customs change, traditions evolve and culture transforms. Due to Egypt’s location of the “cross roads” of African and Asian continents it has been an important geographical and political power since the earliest times (a). Archeologists draw on many sources, such as tomb drawings and artifacts recovered from tombs to discover the daily life of these early peoples. The social unit included a nuclear family structure. The father was responsible for the economic and public social sphere, as the mother was the overseer of the private sphere and children. The children were often depicted playing with toys; much of their childhood was spend preparing for adulthood. Egyptians often decorated their bodies with jewelry and due to superstitions many were thought to contain good luck, these were known as amulets. Cosmetics were not only important for image but for protective and health concerns.

Due to the hot sun and dry winds oils and creams were crucial. As shown above black and green eye make is most characteristic. “The ancient Egyptians interpreted every occurrence in terms of the relationship between natural and supernatural forces. (a)” This connection is because so much relied on the Nile. The people were extremely optimistic more a great period for the reason that the Nile was so consistent with its flooding compared to other great rivers. The people built and lived in mud brick homes and villages (b). The occupation of must Egyptians were field hands, farmers, craftsmen, and scribes. The decline of this Egyptian culture and language came during the Greek Roman Period (332 B.C.-396 A.D.) with the coming of Christianity (c).

Characteristics of the Language:

The Phonology of Egyptian carried many of the similar traits as other Afro-Asiatic languages. From the examination of writing and from extrapolating upon that, it can be determined that there were three consonants at the root of the Egyptian vocabulary. (3) Old Egyptian in particular had a very stable consonant system, which did not have the kind of variations that Middle and Late Egyptian. The system of sounds was largely the same however. (2) Many of the words were also believed to be spoken with “voiced pharyngeal fricative” which is a type of consonantal sound, used in some spoken languages. (3) Since Egyptian is an extinct language the exact phonetics and voice tones are difficult to resurrect, some have tried to extrapolate from Coptic hymns (Coptic being the language that succeeded Egyptian) what words may have sounded like, while other believe the exact sound will never be known. (4) Its important to remember that while the Egyptians did not put vowels into their written words, they likely existed and underwent transformation as the language progressed.

The morphology of Egyptian is somewhat confusing, in many respects it is similar to the Semitic type.(2) In the inflection however, it differs, and is divided into two only two forms, where many believe it proceeds to “Drastically rearrange the entire verbal system.” The sentence structure seems backwards compared to English, for example the ancient Egyptian would not discriminate between “the man opened the door” and the “the door opened the man.”

Linguistic evidence of Historical Changes:

Any language as old as Egyptian will have undergone several changes, weather they are from invasions, migration or the simple propagation of new technologies. Many of the spoken changes were not reflected in writing, and such it is easier to examine the evolution of Egyptian by reviewing its written portion.

The Egyptian language can be divided into five periods of time. Ancient Egyptian ranged from the years before 3000-2200 B.C., Middle Egyptian from 2200-1600 B.C, which was the classical literary language believed to reflect the speech of 2200 B.C. (5) Like Latin persisted as a dead language in Europe, Middle Egyptian persisted as a “dead” language until 500 B.C. Around the year 1380 B.C. Late Egyptian was made the new literary standard by the heretical pharaoh Akhenaton. Late Egyptian had evolved around the year 1550 B.C. and persisted until 700 B.C. It had grammatical and phonetic changes from earlier forms of the Egyptian language.(5) Not long before the New Empire gave way to Persian rule, Demotic Egyptian, became the accepted literary language. It reigned from 700B.C. through A.D. 400 and saw the Persian, Greek, and Roman dominations of Egypt. The last phase of Egyptian, called Coptic evolved around A.D. 300 and about 1100 years. Its emergence coincides with the adaptation of the Greek alphabet and with the rise of the Christian literature into the language. (5)

Arabic language would soon develop from Ancient Egyptian. The Ancient Egyptian-controlled Moabi region is regarded as the home of the Mudar language, the forerunner of Arabic.(6) The name Mudar is an abbreviated form of the Ancient Egyptian term, Medu-Neter, meaning the words/language of angels/gods.(6) It is no accident that Moslems say that Arabic is the “language of angels”, in imitation of the Ancient Egyptian Medu Neter. (6) The people of this Ancient Egyptian colony (Moabi) spoke and wrote the Egyptian language. Scripts found in the Moabi region look exactly like the Ancient Egyptian demotic style of writing.(6)

The Egyptian language, as stated above, belongs to the Afro-asiatic family. Analysis of vocabulary of this parent group shows evidence of migration and lifestyle changes for descendants of the Afro-Asiatic languages. The Afro-Asiatic vocabulary included terms for flour, edible food taken from grasses, and for donkey, but lacked the vocabulary to describe how to herd animals or cultivate crops. (7) At the proto-Erythraic stage, the word for cow was added, but it still did not include terms describing the cultivation process nor herding of animals. The mere presence of Afro-Asiatic root words in the Erythraic languages means that they lived similar lifestyles. However the proto-Erythraic descendants include the term for cow, implying that they must have shifted to where cattle grazed, or that an environmental change occurred allowing cattle to migrate to their lands.(7) Ancient Egyptian is apart of this proto-Erythraic branch and it should be noted that simple vocabulary analysis show how cultures changed, moved, and developed.

Ancient Egyptian Language in the Present

Today in Egypt, Arabic is the national and official language of Egypt, Berber is spoken in a few villages in the west oases, and French and English are common second languages among the educated. The ancient Egyptian language is technically considered a dead language, however it was the language of Egypt for 3,000, therefore it still maintains a relationships to other languages in current times. The current Arabic language traces back its roots to Ancient Egypt and is considered to be an offshoot of Ancient Egyptian language. It also shares much of the same grammar and vocabulary.(5) Arabic writing is also transcended from Ancient Egyptian. Its script is very similar the Ancient Egyptian non-pictorial style of writing with some variations in sound of vocabulary, and additional local Arabic vocabulary. Another language that came from the Ancient Egyptian language is Coptic. This language was formed around the third century B.C. as the result of the Greek speaking population of Egypt that phoneticized the indigenous Egyptian language which they then called Coptic. Coptic is the Egyptian language written with Greek letters plus an additional six to eight letters, depending upon the dialect, to create sounds that the Greek alphabet was not able to represent.(8) The Coptic language was the national language until Arabic took over several centuries after the Islamic conquest of Egypt. Coptic is still the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox Church that is present in Egypt and there are still some families who use a modern dialect of Coptic as a household language. Also due to its roots, Ancient Egyptian, has similarities in vocabulary to the Hebrew language.(9)

Cited Sources

a. http://www.carnegiemuseums.org/cmnh/exhibits/egypt/orientation.htm

This site was one of the most useful in learning about the daily life of Egyptians. It was very easy to navigate and the categories were clearly identifiable. The Carnegie Museum of Natural History of Pittsburgh sponsors the site. The main site is updated daily; however the Egyptian page did not have a date of creation of updating. It is meant to go along with the exhibit at the museum.

b. http://www.ancientegypt.co.uk/life/home.html

This site was another museum site. These types of websites seem to be most interesting and visually stimulating, also reliable. This specific site was the British Museum site. The work belongs to the Trustees of the British Museum. The main site is updated daily, however the specific sections such as the Egyptian section is not. This site was very entertaining; it had games to follow up information. Games of the time were presented.

c. http://www.ancient-egypt.org/history/index.html

quote:

---

Originally posted by abbas8z:
what is known about the Coptic language?
1-what percent of present day egyptian speak coptic?
2-what percentage of pre-islamic egyptians spoke coptic?
3-why and how arabic replaced coptic?
4-did pre-islamic coptic contain arabic word? how about semitic words?

---

posted 24 February 2005 10:05 PM            

Thank you for your insightful questions. Abaza does not give the entire message when he posted his responce. Here is a little more accurate answer to your questions.

quote:

---

1-what percent of present day egyptian speak coptic?

---

This is a very tricky question that not many people know much about in Egypt. The goverment statistics gives the Coptic population to be around -%10 percentage of the Egyptian population. In reality the population is probably around -%20 percentage. This is because many rural Upper Egyptian Copts don't register their births with the goverment. The goverment only counts the Coptics born within the cities of Cairo and Alexandria.

Far more Coptics live in Upper Egypt than in the cities,and this goes unoticed.

The Coptic language in modern Egypt is no longer in useage,but some linguist have pointed out that alot of the Arabic in modern Egypt contains ancient Egyptian and Coptic words within the vocabulary and syntax.

In rural parts of Egypt,the songs of the peasents are almost all in Copt. This is well known to most linguist but not to everyday Egyptians.

quote:

---

2-what percentage of pre-islamic egyptians spoke coptic?

---

I wish you would be more specific about pre-Islamic Egypt. Coptic became used around the Late antique period when Egypt was under Roman and Byzantine occupation. The Coptic dialect was divided into regional branches like Sahidic,Akhminic,faiyumic,and Boharic.

The Sahidic dialect continued to be spoken in Upper Egypt by rural Egyptians untill around the 1800's. The monasteries around Asyut brag about how they have the purest Coptic compared to the Boharic used in most church liturgy.

Arabic began to replace Coptic in written form around the 700's AD. However, it was not untill the 14th century where mixed Coptic/Arabic liturgies began to replace Coptic. Coptic clergy was still using Coptic as late as the 17th century which is recorded by the traveler Count Volney in his Travesl to Syria and Egypt.

[For the above reference about Arabic replacing Coptic in 700 AD see Christian Egypt, Ancient and Modern (1965) by Otto Meinardus]

[/quote]3-why and how arabic replaced coptic?[/quote]

Coptic in rural parts of Upper Egypt continued to be used untill the late 19th century. In the northern parts of Egypt it was because of a decree started by Caliphate Yazid II that banned Coptic in spoken and written form. However, it still continued being used in both forms.

Arabic probably also replaced Coptic in northern parts of Egypt because of the conversion to Islam. However, an Egyptian linguist named Bayoumi Qandil believes that spoken Arabic in modern Egypt is the last phase of the ancient Egyptian language.

quote:

---

4-did pre-islamic coptic contain arabic word? how about semitic words?

---

I would say so because during the 18th dyansty Egypt used Akkadian in the Tell-Amarna letters as a type of trade language. I would imagine this is where many Semetic words crept into the vocabulary of the ancient Egyptian language.

Ancient Egyptian language typically had a different phnology and syntax from Semetic dialects.

quote:

---

4- The reason, the Egyptians lost their language, is because of their WEAKNESS and COWARDICE when the Muslims came marching in!!

---

This is not exactly true. Egyptians in Upper Egypt were not drastically effected by the Arabic invasion of Egypt. They never lost their language untill later times.

When the Arabs came into Egypt, Egypt was under the hegenomy of Byzantine rule.

quote:

---

what is known about the Coptic language?
1-what percent of present day Egyptian speak Coptic?

It is estimated that Coptic Christians constitute 10% of the population of Egypt and if they speak it at all it's at church...

2-what percentage of pre-islamic Egyptians spoke Coptic?

The percentage of Coptic speakers before Arab colonization would probably be 100%...

3-why and how Arabic replaced Coptic?

because Coptic was the vernacular before the Arab conquest. The speaking of the native Egyptian language was officially banned by the Arabs, and its use was permitted only in the liturgy of the Coptic Christian church...

4-did pre-Islamic Coptic contain Arabic word? how about semitic words?

The Coptic language is regarded by linguists as being the last phase of the Ancient Egyptian language, and therefore it would contain many foreign or borrowed words, however, due to the dominance of Egyptian civilization and its seniority, far more Semitic and Arabic words and phrases are derived from the Egyptian language...

---

I think this is something you might want to put on your website,Wally. Most people know very little on how modern Egypt became the way it was today because of the past events of Late Antique Egypt.

Have you studied the Islamic era in Egypt? Its extremely fasinating but equally overlooked.

One great addition to your website might be about the foreigners that came to Egypt over the years from Dyanstic times to modern times in Egypt. I could help you with this.

posted 25 February 2005 12:40 AM            

quote:

---

by ausar:

I would say so because during the 18th dyansty Egypt used Akkadian in the Tell-Amarna letters as a type of trade language. I would imagine this is where many Semetic words crept into the vocabulary of the ancient Egyptian language.

---

Speaking of written Semetic language, recent discoveries indicate its roots in Egyptic script:

"Scholars had thought that these languages - known as Proto-Sinaitic and Proto-Canaanite - had been developed from Egyptian hieroglyphs.

But this new evidence has prompted the theory that the development took place in Egypt itself, during the period of the Middle Kingdom.

Dr Darnell believes that scribes among foreign mercenaries serving with the Egyptian army developed the simplified writing - initially through the work of hieroglyphic scribes who simplified the pictograms into a rudimentary alphabet for use by Semitic speakers.

This is well before the probable time of the Biblical story of Joseph being delivered into slavery in Egypt, so predating the traditional seeds of a Semitic presence in Egypt."

Source: Oldest alphabet found in Egypt

Posted previously here: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001487.html

posted 26 February 2005 06:38 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

I think this is something you might want to put on your website,Wally. Most people know very little on how modern Egypt became the way it was today because of the past events of Late Antique Egypt.

Have you studied the Islamic era in Egypt? Its extremely fasinating but equally overlooked.

One great addition to your website might be about the foreigners that came to Egypt over the years from Dyanstic times to modern times in Egypt. I could help you with this.

---

I agree;
If you'll write it up, email it to me and I'll create the new page.

wally_mo@yahoo.com

posted 27 February 2005 09:56 PM            

Abaza, and every one else thanks for the posting & links.
do arabic language experts agree that Arabic developed from Ancient Egyptian? or is this just one person's theory?

also on the issue of Arabs banning the Coptic language.
was there any reaction to this banning? any revolt? protest or so forth?
did any writters or poets try to ressist by writtig in Coptic?(in an underground sort of momvement).

did any writter during the banning period try to write about the glories of AE? to stimulate Egyptian nationalism and spread a sense of resistance.

how was the educional system, prior to the Arab conquest?? was it only for the elite and previliged classes or was it more democratic?? how did the Arab conquest effect the education system? beside replacing the language?
was education restricted or made availale to more people?

what did the early and first generation egyptian writters express themselves?
and as we go down the generations how did they express themselves??
anything can be detected? such as hate admiration?jelosy? sense of superiorty? or inferiorty? toward the Arab conquerors?

has there been any study/dabte on the above questions?

posted 27 February 2005 10:49 PM            

But it is really inaccurate to say that "Arabic" developed from mdw ntr.

posted 28 February 2005 01:06 AM            

quote:

---

do arabic language experts agree that Arabic developed from Ancient Egyptian? or is this just one person's theory?

---

Arabic,like other Semetic languages, developed from Proto-Semetic whose original homebase is most likely in modern Ethiopia or the Horn of Africa.

Most linguist donot hold that Arabic came from Mdu ntr[hieroglyphics]. Some scholars locally based in Egypt declare that Arabic comes from mdu ntr[hieroglyphics]. I can refer you to some Arabic based literature based in Egypt that believe this to be fact. One such author is Bayoumi Qandil.

quote:

---

also on the issue of Arabs banning the Coptic language.
was there any reaction to this banning? any revolt? protest or so forth?

---

You must understand that Coptic continued to be spoken and written in parts of Upper Egypt untill the 16th century. Count Volney who traveled to Upper Egypt witnessed the Coptic monks in the monestaries still using the Coptic language in a written form.

When researching this question we must witness both the urban and rural areas in Upper and Lower Egypt. Both have a different story,and both have a different history.

I have not read so much about the history of Cairo or Lower Egypt. The Arabic writers like el-Maqrizi and others are silent on this. We also have the various writings of Coptic Patriarchs in Alexandria and some parts of Middle and Upper Egypt.

All is known is that the written form of Arabic replaced Coptic in Lower Egypt as early as the 700's.

Coptic continued to be spoken in parts of Upper Egypt without much hinderance of the Caliphates or with any other authorities.

Most of the protests were from the Delta and Upper Egyptian peasents against unjust taxes levied by the Arabian Caliphate.

quote:

---

did any writters or poets try to ressist by writtig in Coptic?(in an underground sort of momvement).

---

Coptic continued to be used as late as early 20th centuries in parts of Upper Egypt. It was only around the 14th century that Coptic was side by side with Arabic in parts of Upper Egypt.

Yes, there were Coptic poets and writers during the Fatimid period. This was a period of tolerance between the Dhimmi[Christians] and Muslims. Unfortunately, the mercenary soliders recruited from various parts were against the indigenous Fellahin living in the countryside.

Most Copts wrongly repeat that Arab Caliphates would have their tongue cut out if they spoke Coptic. This is simply not true.

quote:

---

how was the educional system, prior to the Arab conquest?? was it only for the elite and previliged classes or was it more democratic??

---

Before the Arab conquest Egypt was under the occupation of the Byzantines or the Eastern Roman empire. You had a class system which placed the Greeks on top and the rural Egyptian peasents on the bottom. These systems were known as gynasiams where Greek litterature,language, and culture was taught.

The only other education facility was for Monastic monks living in various parts of Lower Egypt and in Upper Egypt. These monasteries mostly copied Biblical texts and taught the Coptic language. You can compare monestaries to the House of Life in the ancient Egyptian tradition.

Other than the educated clergy, most Egyptians were farming peasents often illiterate.

quote:

---

how did the Arab conquest effect the education system? beside replacing the language?

---

The Arab conquest had little effect on the monastery communities. The monastic communities were basically their own communities within Egypt. Most made money from craftwork and textiles.

Some Arabian caliphates did burn many documents from Monasteris but many survive to this day.

quote:

---

was education restricted or made availale to more people?

---

This would not come untill Al-Ahzar built by the Fatimids. Most Egyptians remained peasants in both Upper and Lower Egypt.

quote:

---

what did the early and first generation egyptian writters express themselves?

---

This is hard to say because we don't hear the real words from the peseant majority. Most of the writters of the Islamic era are non-Egyptian Arabs. People like al-Kindi,Al-Maqrizi,and others.

The only exception comes from Dhul-Nun-Masri. He was a Mawali from Akhmin in Middle Egypt. Most of his writings are lost but the ones that remain show a great knowleadge in both ancient Egypt and Sufism.

One thing you must understand is that Egyptians who converted to Islam were known as Mawali. Mawali had to follow the Arab elite around and become pretty much a servent to the ruling Arabs.

quote:

---

and as we go down the generations how did they express themselves??

---

We have nothing from the indigenous Egyptian Fellahin during the Islamic era. Only certain writings from various chroniclers and Arab historians.

quote:

---

anything can be detected? such as hate admiration?jelosy? sense of superiorty? or inferiorty? toward the Arab conquerors?

---

Like I mentioned above the voice of the Egyptian Fellahin is rather silent. The only voices are the Arabic writers and some Chronicles from the Coptic patriarchs.

I imagine many of the ruling Arabs probably say themselves superior to the non-Arab Egyptians. We do read some mistreatment of them in the writings of al-Maqrizi and Ibn Khaldun.

posted 04 March 2005 12:29 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by abbas8z:
ausar,
thank you, sorry I could not post earlier.
few questions that came to mind though.
1-are you suggesting that the copts are not true egyptians? and the fellahin (=peasents???) are the only true egyptians??
2- also am I understanding correctly that the copts of that time (pre-islam & early islam)
were not concerned with AE identity and more concerned with the coptic identiy??
3-had the Arabs not conquered Egypt, would it be reasonable to think that Egypt would have turned into , Greek speaking nation ( or maybe a possiablitiy among many possabilities)
4-whats the dominate ethic group in upper Egypt / lower Egypt (if any)>> any conflict between the two??

---

"Copts" is just as misunderstood term as "Nubian", in the sense that their historic contexts aren't usually fully grasped. Egyptian population during "Christianization", was simply native Egyptians. However, when the Arabs came, they just applied the term "copt" (albeit a different pronounciation to its modern counterpart) to any native Egyptian, who wasn't considered fully Arabized, as well as a Muslim convert. They mispronounced or modified the word from a Greek adoption of the Egyptian terminology meaning "native". Thereafter, cult status among Christians initiated the identification of the Coptic term to the sections who practiced christianity, whereby church literature is done in Coptic. Fellaheen traditionally dwelt in lesser urban areas, but more are moving to more urban areas. They could be Christians or Muslims.

I am of the opinion that Egyptians probably would have continued Egyptic language, expressed in Greek characters, had Arabization not occurred in the manner it did.