posted 23 February 2005 08:05 AM            

"It is not an accident that the students of Afrocentrism and catastrophism act more like disciples of a guru than students of a scientific teacher. They are on a mission, not a quest. And, as with many before them with noble goals, they believe the end justifies the means. Hence, it is nearly futile to engage them in debate. Scholars have difficulty debating opponents such as Afrocentrists, catastrophists, creationists or even anti-abortionists, because they expect their opponents to be civil and play by the rules of scholarly evidence. They mistakenly believe they have entered an arena where all sides are in quest of the same truth. What they are actually getting into is a street fight, where the goal is to defeat and humiliate your enemy. Their opponents don't follow traditional standards of evidence in their printed arguments and diatribes, so why expect them to be any different in a public debate? If you challenge their accuracy, they will question your integrity. If you ask for evidence, they will insult you. If you challenge their sources, you will be asked to prove the absolute certainty of your sources. You think the arena is an intellectual one where the combatants use wit and intelligence to score points, but while you are looking above your opponent's shoulders, he will kick you in the groin. You may have the evidence and the arguments on your side but your opponent doesn't care about the evidence and is not interested in your arguments. He already knows the truth."

posted 23 February 2005 08:20 AM            

Gregory M. Gordon, Eurocentrism (1996)

Martin Bernal's Ancient Model
Classical Era(800BCE-600AD)

The birth and infancy of Western Civilization. Also known as the Greco-Roman era. Greek civilization would have flourished between 800BCE-30BCE. Roman civilization would have flourished between 30BCE to 600AD. Modern scholars consider these two civilizations to be the most advanced and innovative in antiquities, and modern scholars credit them for establishing the various branches of high knowledge such as math, science, engineering, architecture, philosophy, polity, and so on. Despite what European/Euro-American scholars have asserted for decades, the ancient Greeks and Romans often gave credit to older civilizations and the ancient Greco-Romans frequently admitted to borrowing ideas from the Egyptians and west Semitic civilizations. The Greco-Romans frequently expressed admiration for Egyptian and Nubian/Ethiopian contributions to world civilization. Modern European/Euro-American scholars often interpret the Greco-Roman writers as not being accurate in their accounts on outside influences on them, or their admiration for others as being grossly exaggerated. Modern European/Euro-American also argue that the ancient Greco-Romans were wrong when they describe most Egyptians as being black in appearance. These scholars frequently quote from a conservative African American historian (Frank Snowden, formerly of Howard University) as evidence of their assertion.

Martin Bernal's Ancient Model

Medieval Era/Dark Ages/Middle Ages (600AD to 1300AD)

During the European medieval era, the time period represented a time of intellectual and cultural stagnation. Because of the powerful influence of the Roman Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Empire over the European people, the Church was successful in destroying many Greco-Roman documents/artifacts, because the Church considered such things to be sacrilegious. Scientists, artists, theologians, philosophers, writers, and so on who question or contradicted Church policy were either jailed, tortured or executed. It was a very anti-intellectual and anti-cultural atmosphere. Despite the medieval climate, Europeans continued to express great admiration for Egyptians and Ethiopians. Europeans held them (Egyptian and Ethiopic populations) in high regarded and artistically portrayed them as a darker race of people. They viewed Ethiopians as natural Christian allies during the Crusades (the Crusades involved a war between Christians and Moslems over who will control Jerusalem). Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire in 378AD and the official religion of Ethiopia in 425AD. Europeans wanted to establish direct contact with the Ethiopians in order to form a coalition army against the Arab and Moorish Moslems in Palestine. Medieval Europeans in their literature frequently cited Prester John (a Christian Ethiopian King) as a key person in winning the Crusade against the Arab and Moorish Moslems. The Moslems purportedly kidnaped Prester John in a battle that took place in Jerusalem between Arabs Moslems and Ethiopian Christians and Jews. European literature and art frequently lamented over rescuing Prester John from the Moslem "infidels." Europeans had great difficulty establishing direct contact with Ethiopia, because the Arab Moslems controlled North Africa, especially Egypt. In 1400AD, Moslems were successful in attacking the Ethiopian Empire and suppressed the Ethiopian Christian and Jewish religions. Moslems forced the Ethiopian royalty to make Islam the official religion of Ethiopia. Rarely did classical or medieval Europeans refer to blacks in racist or negative references. Europeans, as well as Africans and other groups would have expressed ethnocentric biases, but not racial biases. During the medieval era, the Arabs/Moors successfully cut the Europeans off from the rest of the world. Moslems literally barricaded the Europeans into their own continent and rarely permitted them to come in or out. Europeans could not travel in Africa or Asia, because the Moslem armies prohibited such mobility. Marco Polo was one of the few Europeans to travel outside of Europe in the late 1200sAD.

The European Renaissance (1300AD to 1600AD)

The renaissance represented Europe's break from its intellectual and cultural malaise/stagnation. Scientists, philosophers, artists, writers, theologians were able to get away with criticizing the Church and political authority, and asserted their ideas and inventions without persecution. Instead of the Holy Roman Empire calling all the shots for Europe, nations came into existence by breaking away from the Holy Roman Empire. It was the rise of the modern nation state in Europe. In 1517, Martin Luther triggered the reformation, a break away from the Roman Catholic Church and the establishment of Protestantism. It greatly weakened the power of the Roman Catholic Church. During this time frame there was a re-birth (renaissance) of Greco-Roman ideas and inventions as well as an explosion of new European ideas and inventions. Some of the new European ideas and inventions in renaissance Europe came about because of heavy borrowings from Arab, Indian and Chinese societies. The heaviest borrowings were in the areas of science, technology and math. Marco Polo brought back to Europe many of those ideas, such as gun powder from China. Later borrowings were such things as the printing press and rag-content paper from China, Algebra, fire arms, advance medicine, advanced cartography, nautical instruments and wind-driven ships from the Arabs, and the mathematical concept of 0 and other mathematical and scientific principles from India. The European renaissance also represented European curiosity about the rest of the world and the desire to establish direct contact with them. As a result, Europe embarked on the age of exploration. Europeans launched naval expeditions to explore and establish trade contacts with Africa, India, China, and eventually the Americas. Because Europeans begin to have direct contacts with people of color and encountered different levels of their development, Europeans begin to "scientifically" classify human populations into "races" and levels of "civility" and "development". Many began to argue that there was a link between the three. The middle to latter part of the European renaissance triggered a shift in European thinking about people of color. As a result, Europeans (Caucasoids) began to think of themselves as racially superior to people of color, specifically the Africans (Negroids) and Asiatics/native Americans (Mongoloids). Most modern historians/scholars such as W.E.B. Dubois, Withrop Jordan, St. Clair Drake, and Martin Bernal argue that this was the birth of racism. This new thinking began to manifest itself in European literature as early as the late 1400sAD, and definitely by the late 1500sAD (Withrop Jordan of Harvard University is widely considered as the leading expert on this subject). These scholars argue that the Atlantic slave trade of Africans to the Americas and the European conquest over the native Americans in the Americas dovetailed with this new racist thinking, and ultimately manifested itself as an intellectual justification.

Martin Bernal's Aryan Model

The Enlightenment (1600AD to 1800AD) and the Romantic Eras (1800AD to 1900AD)

During the Enlightenment era in Europe and Euro-North America, there was a great emphasis on rationalism and the scientific method. There was a debate over faith versus reasoning. It was argued that Caucasians were the only race capable of "rational thinking." Other races relied on "emotions" or "bestial desires." Enlightenment "scientists" argued that there was a genetic link between race and intelligence, race and physical constitution, race and behavior, and race and material development. These arguments were recently waged by a Harvard University scholar and a MIT scholar in a 1994/1995 best selling book entitled The Bell Curve. Social critics ranging from William Bennet to George Will praised the book for its cutting edge scholarship and brave insights. Enlightenment era European and Euro-American "scientists" begin to place a rank or pecking order from the most superior to most inferior races. They have surmised that Caucasoids (Europeans, whites) were the most superior, Mongoloids (Asiatics, native Americans, or the yellows, browns and reds) were moderate, and Negroids (sub-Sahara Africans, Indian Dravidians, etc., blacks) were the most inferior. European "scholars" began to argue that Negroes were not even human. European "scholars" argued that Negroes were supposedly genetically closer to lower primates (apes, guerrillas, monkeys, chimpanzees, etc.) than modern homo sapien sapiens or modern human beings. Enlightenment and Romantic era "scholars" began to justify the enslavement of Africans because of the Negro's supposed genetic "inferiority" to Caucasians, and white justification of native American genocide and territorial conquest because of the native American's supposed genetic "inferiority" to Caucasians. Despite the classical and medieval European belief of Egyptians and Ethiopians as being mostly a black or Negro race of people, the new paradigm/thinking during the Enlightenment/Romantic eras was to re-classify north east Africans/Nilotic-Saharans as Caucasians, to diminish black/Negro contributions to world civilization. Martin Bernal argues that the Aryan model soon replaced the Ancient model in order to bolster white supremacy and to inflate European/Western contributions to world civilization.

Martin Bernal's Extreme Aryan Model

The Archeological Age (1900AD to 1945AD)

Queen Victoria, who reigned over the British Empire wanted to assert that England was the most superior country in the world, both past and present. She ordered the University of Oxford, University of Cambridge, and the University of London to spearhead archeological excavations in England to "prove" the superiority of the English. The field of archeology came into existence as a result. Scholars begin to argue the "scientific" validity of archeology and its accuracy. After "proving" the "superiority" of the ancient English people, British archeologists begin to influence the academies throughout the West with this new "science", especially in France, Germany, Russia, the United States, and so on. In order to bolster the claim of a superior ancient English population, the field of comparative archeology came into existence. They (the Brits) wanted to compare their ancient civilization to other ancient civilizations in Nilotic Africa, the Middle East, south Asia and east Asia. In order to better verify the "scientific" findings, the field of Anthropology began to flourish as a new discipline in the academy. In maintaining and expanding the philosophy and belief in white supremacy, and the hierarchy of races, new paradigms, schools of thought and political movements begin to blossom and influence Western academies between 1900AD to 1945AD. There was the emergence of social Darwinism (as argued by historian Richard Hofsteader, in Social Darwinism in American Thought), Eugenics (as asserted by Steven Gould in The Mismeasurement of Man), the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Quotion Test (IQ test), Fascism and Nazism. Social Darwinism, Eugenics and the IQ test were American inventions. In addition to already claiming that Egyptians and Ethiopians were non-Negroes or Caucasians, through archeology and anthropology, European and Euro-American "scholars" also begin to re-classify most middle eastern populations and the populations of India (except the Dravidians) as Caucasian. Because of the great ancient civilizations in the Middle East and the Asian sub-continent (India), which eclipsed those in the West in terms of development, Western "scientists" set out to prove an Aryan (northern Europeans) influence on those ancient civilizations. Although the term Aryan is really a linguistic term and not a racial term, between 1900 to 1945, the term Aryan to many meant the most genetically and intellectually "superior" within the Caucasian race. More "superior" than the Roman or Slavic (both terms are also linguistic terms and not racial/genetic terms) extractions within the Caucasian race. Aryan is technically the language family of northern Europe such as German, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, English, Dutch, Afrikaner and so on). Western "scientists" begin to argue that German/Aryan tribes migrated and influenced ancient Egyptian civilization, Greek civilization, Roman civilization, Hittite/Turkish civilization, Assyrian civilization, Persian civilization, and Indian/Hindu civilization, and Sino-Tibetan (Chinese) civilization. Western "scholars" begin to argue that Sanskrit, an Indian writing system (circa 2500BCE) that pre-dates the Greek writing system (circa 1500BCE) has many verbal Aryan cognets and rules. Therefore, Western scholars concluded that Aryan tribes invented the Sanskrit writing system in northwest India/Pakistan and put Indian/Hindu civilization into orbit. The implication was that the Aryans, not the Indians invented Sanskrit. It was also argued that the Aryan tribes mixed with the Indians and therefore, influenced the rest of the Indian sub-continent. Because of this, scholars begin to re-classify language families into new categories, such as the Indo-European (from India to Persia/Iran, Anatolian/Turkey all the way through Europe and ultimately to Ireland!) or the Indo-Aryan language family. Other re-classifications were the Hamito-Semitic (Egyptian, Berber, Hebrew, Arabic), and Bantu (sub-Saharan Africa or "black" Africa). Cushitic (Nubian, Ethiopian, Somolian, etc.) could not be classified, therefore, it was often linked to Hamito-Semitic. Cushites were not suppose to be associated with Negroes, because they were supposedly too advanced to be such. The fields of archeology and anthropology became the very tools of white/Aryan supremacy during this era (such as depicted in the movie: Raiders of the Lost Ark?). Famous Egyptologists from Randall McIvers to Arthur Weigal epitomized the traditions of the extreme Aryan model. Weigal, in his book The Life and Times of Akenaten (1923) and other books asserted that the Nubian rule in 25th Dynasty (800BCE to 600BCE) over Egypt and other regions was "an epoch of nigger domination" in world history (also see Lerone Bennett's They Came Before the Mayflower). There was an interesting contradiction in Weigal's racist statement, and that is his acknowledgment that the Nubians were black!

The Post-Modern Era (1945AD to the Present)

Martin Bernal's Revised Ancient Model and Revised Aryan Model

posted 23 February 2005 09:05 AM            

quote:

---

The wildest is the group that wants to tie Africa to Greece, just as nutty as a fruitcake.[/B]

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Hmm. Well the Ancient Greeks themselves related their society to Africa as Martin Bernal points out.

What's wild is claiming a European/West Asian Origin for Kemet.

A far fetched notion no longer supported by even main stream western academia, and yet still asserted (weakly) by Professor Horemheb.

posted 23 February 2005 09:44 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

A far fetched notion no longer supported by even main stream western academia, and yet still asserted (weakly) by Professor Horemheb.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 23 February 2005 02:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
Come on thought, you can do better than that. that is the old "if they don't agree with us they must be a racist" thing. It's old and worn out and you can do better. They don't agree with you, can you imagine such a thing.

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Not in all cases no, but in your case and Evil's, etc.....yes. When you spout racist comments like monkey, boy, etc...people will see you as a racist redneck.

posted 23 February 2005 02:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
Not in all cases no, but in your case and Evil's, etc.....yes. When you spout racist comments like monkey, boy, etc...people will see you as a racist redneck.

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Such comments also betray a lack of self respect.

A powerful point is made simply by not stooping to their level.

posted 23 February 2005 04:37 PM            

quote:

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I'll do that when I have the time.

---

Oh good. You can pick up where you left off. Remember, it's - classicism, not classicalism, or classcialism.

posted 23 February 2005 08:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Very insightful passage from a review of Not Out of Africa about the futility of "debating" Afronuts and other ideologues. I can relate:

[b]"It is not an accident that the students of Afrocentrism and catastrophism act more like disciples of a guru than students of a scientific teacher. They are on a mission, not a quest. And, as with many before them with noble goals, they believe the end justifies the means. Hence, it is nearly futile to engage them in debate. Scholars have difficulty debating opponents such as Afrocentrists, catastrophists, creationists or even anti-abortionists, because they expect their opponents to be civil and play by the rules of scholarly evidence. They mistakenly believe they have entered an arena where all sides are in quest of the same truth. What they are actually getting into is a street fight, where the goal is to defeat and humiliate your enemy. Their opponents don't follow traditional standards of evidence in their printed arguments and diatribes, so why expect them to be any different in a public debate? If you challenge their accuracy, they will question your integrity. If you ask for evidence, they will insult you. If you challenge their sources, you will be asked to prove the absolute certainty of your sources. You think the arena is an intellectual one where the combatants use wit and intelligence to score points, but while you are looking above your opponent's shoulders, he will kick you in the groin. You may have the evidence and the arguments on your side but your opponent doesn't care about the evidence and is not interested in your arguments. He already knows the truth."

http://skepdic.com/refuge/lefko.html[/B]

---

Thought Writes:

Attempting to label ones adversary is a tactic often utilized when one cannot stand on the facts alone.

posted 23 February 2005 08:26 PM            

A second review of Bernal's work:
=============================================
source: amazon.com

The Repetition of Nonsense is nonetheless nonsense, December 26, 2001
Reviewer: J. Dickson "tolive" (Los Angeles, CA) - See all my reviews

I came across this whole controversy while in college and have kept up with the "debate" to some extent since. To make a long story short, Bernal's contentions of "history" have been dealt a fatal blow by Lefkowitz, Rogers, et all. Apparently Bernal believes that repeating the same old distortions, and yes unfortunately, out right lies, somehow qualifies as history.

I italicized "debate" because on the one hand there are responsible historians using the tools and evidence of historians, and on the other there are name calling ad hominem attacks that provide little light but much heat on the matter.

Don't waste your time with this rehash if you are already familiar with the controversy. Certainly nothing new, and frankly, one has to be a bit embarassed for Bernal et

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
The Bernal piece posted here shows its writer to be a wild eyed, fanatic left wing radical. We have far too many of the kooks in western universities, though we are about to fire one at the university of colorado. These guys are frustrated socialist and marxists. they are the losers in the evolution of world history and make up for their frustration by even more outlandish and silly ideas. the article was so distorted it would take considerable time to sift through it and correct its obvious errors. I'll do that when I have the time.

---

posted 24 February 2005 08:56 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Attempting to label ones adversary is a tactic often utilized when one cannot stand on the facts alone.

---

posted 24 February 2005 09:11 AM            

quote:

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And when rasol posted that long-winded rant about "Eurocentrism"?

---

You mean this?

quote:

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Topdog wrote: Evil Euro is simply good at misrepresenting information in studies.

---

quote:

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Well he's certainly addicted to misrepresentation, I don't know how good at it he is.

Other fallacious tactics of EuroDisney include:

* Insert racial rhetoric into citations and tries to pass it off as direct quote.

* Tries to ignore his own cited sources when they flatly contradict him.

* Uses ad-hominem and ethnic insult to attempt to flame conversations, and so distract attention from the contradictions inherent in his ridiculous claims.

* Response to specific questions with red herring and straw argument which do not in any away address the actual question asked.

Still, it should be useful for all to see 1st hand what has been called the "painful demise of Eurocentrism", so that when similar semantical speciousness is encountered elsewhere it can be dispatched accordingly.

---

Hit you where you live did it?

Whine all you like, but the post accurately documents your fallacious rhetorical tactics which you are in fact.... still engaging in with your above utterly non-responsive reply.

Better you should answer the questions in the original threads, than start a face-saving thread excusing yourself for having no answers.

posted 24 February 2005 09:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
You mean like when you labeled your adversaries "trolls"

---

Thought Writes:

posted 24 February 2005 09:45 AM            

You have not actually read Black Athena.

You don't know what classicism is.

You don't have the foggiest clue as to what any of this really, is all about.

You will continue to response with inanity because that is all you can do given the circumstances of your own self-policed ignorance.

Thank you for playing.

posted 24 February 2005 09:51 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
In other words Professor -

You have not actually read Black Athena.

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posted 24 February 2005 12:02 PM            

Lefkowitz has defended the profession of teaching against those who would use the classroom as a pulpit for propaganda. And she has defended the standards of honesty and accuracy in the interpretation of history against the pseudohistorians who repress such values in favor of advancing political purposes. Watching her do this is like watching someone shoot fish in a barrel.

My overall emotional response to Lefkowitz's obliteration of the opponents of historical accuracy and honesty is not one of joy but of disgust and sadness. We have witnessed a similar debacle in the debates over creationism vs. evolution with scholars such as Stephen Jay Gould stripping away the veneer of argument from creationists. Gould can hardly debate and argue with his opponents, for they have all but obliterated traditional standards of evidence and argument. So too with Lefkowtiz and her opponents. They distort and twist facts and interpretations of facts at will. Many scholars have been afraid to take on the creationists when they have threatened science and scientific knowledge, methods and standards. Textbook authors still kowtow to religious fundamentalists and falsify science in text after text by ignoring evolution or treating it as "just a theory, like creationism." Likewise, few scholars have publicly stated their opposition to Afrocentrism. Lefkowitz stands out as a voice in the academic wilderness, defending traditional standards of inductive reasoning to the most probable conclusions. It is as if the voices of relativism, historicism and the fear of being labelled a "racist" have silenced the majority of scholars and teachers.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
By the way guys I looked up the source listed above, Gregory M Gordon. he is what Evil Europe calls an Afronut. When you read his material the first thing out of nhis mouth is 'race.' He can be dismissed as yet another crack pot.

---

posted 24 February 2005 12:10 PM            

Chapter one describes how the author became involved in the debunking of Afrocentrism. At a lecture at Wellesley given by Dr. Yosef A.A. ben-Jochannan, introduced as "a distinguished Egyptologist," she asked him what his evidence was for his claim that Aristotle had robbed the library at Alexandria and stolen his ideas from black Egyptians, when that library had not been built until after Aristotle's death. The Egyptologist said he resented the tone of her inquiry; several students called her a racist for asking such a question; and colleagues indicated that they were indifferent to the matter.

posted 24 February 2005 12:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
Heru, No , I have not. I have read enough of it to know where Bernal is trying to go. If it were accepted scholarship it would be worth a read. Bernal is one of these left wing crack pots that have survived from the 60's. Bernal seems to want to imply that history is driven by race. Marxist historians early in the century made the same error by promoting the idea that history was driven by class relationships.
In reality history is driven by many things, the accumulation of money and power being the most important. His view that Europenas distorted the contribution of Africans to the modern world is absurd and has been sounly refuted by reputable scholars.[b] Africa has produced many colorful cultures but has not produced a single culture that has made any meaningful contribution to the progress of the modern world. These people would have you believe that black Africans produced a great culture in Egypt and then just fell off a cliff into obscurity. [/B]

---

Its generally agreed that the early Egyptians were "southern". If Lefkowitz cites Keita (which she does), she agrees with this assessment.

posted 24 February 2005 04:06 PM            

Of course all these nations and peoples plus Africa(Ancient Egypt, Nubia, Ghana, Mali, Songhay, Axum, Nok, Zimbabawe, etc.) made many contributions to world civilisation at times when Europeans(excluding the Greeks who are on the hinterlands of Europe) were abject savages(Champollion's actual observation). Let us say "bravo, Europe has finally achieved a few things; we were starting to get worried about its inhabitants. But they have shown that they can copycat well and come up with a few things". But what's really worrying is the incredible amount of violence that they have rained down on the world in their evolution from savagery to normalcy.

But even so Africa has made unmistakeable contributions to the modern world by affecting and influencing the aesthetic life of humans in the areas of art and sculpture--all of so-called modern Western art springs from an African motif, and in the area of music expression. All of modern music expression in its myriad forms springs from an African aesthetic.

Modern art in its abstract form of expression--cubism, etc--springs from Picasso and Mondrian being inspired by the complex expression of traditional African art.

posted 25 February 2005 07:32 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Better you should answer the questions in the original threads, than start a face-saving thread excusing yourself for having no answers.

---

Speaking of having no answers . . .

posted 25 February 2005 09:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Speaking of having [no answers] . . .

[b]http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001582.html[/B]

---

You also have no answers for Thought2:

quote:

---

Thought Writes:

Dr. Pinhasi seems to believe (personal communication) that in order to contrast the relationship between Natufian's and the "proto-Khosian negroids" of LSA East Africa one should analyze shared derived traits. Mesolithic Natufian remains have higher nasal indices and greater prognathism than the preceeding Upper paleolithic Levantine Ohalo crania. Given the fact that the late pleistocene was marked by increased aridification during the Last Glacial Maximum hot/moist derived traits such as prognathism and platyrrhinism support the genetic record of populations carrying M35 lineages from tropical Africa.

Thought Posts:

Raymond Furon

"Manuel de Prehistorie Generale"

1958

The caves of Erg-el-Ahmar......produced 132 individuals for Miss Garrod. All these Natufians share the same physical type, completely different from that of earlier Palestinians. They are short, about 160 cm. and dolichocephalic. They were probably Cro-Magnoid Mediterraneans, presenting certain Negroid characteristics attributable to crossbreeding...

Thought Writes:

The "crossbreeding" Furon mentions in this quote is consistent with the archaeological data where Mushabian Africans and Kebaran Middle Eastern population merge to produce the Natufian and the genetic record where haplogroup J carrying Middle Eastern (Kebaran ?) population and haplogroup E3b carrying East Africans (Mushabian) merge t produce the major lineages of the Near East (Haplogroups J and E).

---

You also have no answers for TopDog:

quote:

---

Notice Evil Euro's silence - its deafening.

---

You also have no answers for S. Mohammad, re: "Why caucazoid genes don't exist" http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001543.html

However, at least you know how to link to the threads in which you have no answers, so I guess that counts for something.

posted 25 February 2005 02:00 PM            

The Truth About Budge
department of ancient egypt and sudan > contact us > faqs >

Why are there no books by Budge here?

Sir E A Wallis Budge (1857-1934) published prolifically during his lifetime. The standard biographical study of Egyptologists summarises his achievements as follows:

'in his text editions, Budge was too prolific for careful work, and many of them are inaccurate by modern standards; he persisted in the use of an old system of transcription, and did not utilise many of the grammatical discoveries of the Berlin School; nevertheless without his phenomenal energy and devotion, many hieratic, Coptic, and other texts would not have become known and been made available until a much later date' (Who was who in Egyptology, 1995, p. 72).

The usefulness of books by Sir Wallis Budge has been controversial. Budge ignored major developments made in the fields of transcription, grammar and lexicography, and was neglectful in matters of archaeology and provenance. Although he was an active collector, his publications fell behind contemporaneous scholarly standards and are now extremely outdated. Today, University students are strongly advised not to use them, because of their basic errors of fact and methodology.

For this same reason the Department of Ancient Egypt and Sudan does not include any of Budge's books on its recommended reading list. Budge's works are still in print, but this is because they are out of copyright, and so the text can be cheaply reprinted. While they are well illustrated, full of information and extremely cheap, they are at best unreliable, and usually misleading.

E.A. Wallis Budge in his office

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
By the way guys I looked up the source listed above, Gregory M Gordon. he is what Evil Europe calls an Afronut. When you read his material the first thing out of nhis mouth is 'race.' He can be dismissed as yet another crack pot.

---

posted 25 February 2005 02:11 PM            

quote:

---

It seems, judging by some posts on this forum, that anyone who makes the claim that the people and civilization of Ancient Egypt were Black Africans, is an Afrocentric. If that is the criteria, then the following are Afrocentrists:

The Ancient Egyptians

The Ancient Greeks
Herodotus
Aristotle
Lucian
Apollodorus
Aeschylus

The Ancient Romans
Strabo
Diodorus of Sicily
Diogenes Laertius
Ammanius Marcellinus

France
Count Constatine de Volney
Marius Fontanes - "Les Egyptes"

England
EW Budge - "Keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities,
British Museum"

The Anzac troops upon arriving in Egypt during WWI
http://www.dnzb.govt.nz/dnzb/default.asp?Find_Quick.asp?PersonEssay=3B39
Africa
Professor C.A. Diop
Professor Theophile Obenga

The Christian Bible

The Kebra Nagast (Ethiopian bible)

The Tanakh (Torah)

The Koran

---

Quite a list of crackpots.

posted 25 February 2005 04:57 PM            

HERODOTUS: THE FATHER OF LIES

=============================================

Introduction

Herodotus' Histories strike the modern reader as rather curious stuff: an odd blend of history, anecdote, folk tale, gossip, tall tales, travelogue, and National Geographic special. Marincola's introduction (in de Sélincourt) provides a brief assessment of the work from a modern historian's point of view: its structure and overall form, Herodotus' sources, his biases, his trustworthiness. Here our concern will be the background to Herodotus' account and (briefly) approaches to evaluating his aims in writing this curious work.

Today Herodotus is referred to (somewhat inaccurately) as the Father of History; in antiquity, by contrast, he was often called the Father of Lies. This evaluation is based in part on Herodotus' pro-Athenian biases (discussed below), but to a great degree it represents a reaction to the curious "tall tales" in which his work abounds:

stories, e.g., of gold-digging ants the size of foxes (3.102-05); of races of people bald from birth (4.23) or with the feet of goats (4.25) or with only one eye (4.26); [FN 1] of bizarre sexual practices (these you'll have to find for yourselves!); of plants which, when thrown on a fire, emit a smoke that makes people drunk "just as wine does the Greeks" (1.202 — surely a bizarre fiction of some sort!)

. [FN 2] This love of tall tales earned the censure, in particular, of Herodotus' younger contemporary, the historian Thucydides (as we'll see later in the course), who regards them as a sign that Herodotus is more interested in entertaining his audience and winning applause than in presenting a serious historical analysis.

quote:

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Originally posted by Roy_2k5:
Aristotle and Plato are not only liars, but they are crackpots now. Then why do the Eurocentric education system of the West always focus on those two, along with others like Herodotus, etc. This must mean the West is on crack too.

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HERODOTUS TO THE RESCUE OF AFRO-NUTS!!

posted 25 February 2005 05:30 PM            

GOD Almighty Said: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Err, why reinvent the wheel?
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001450.html

Quite a list of crackpots.

Personally, I think Horemheb is on crack and Abaza is smoking pot, but hey, to each his own.

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posted 26 February 2005 07:42 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
...wherein you have no answers for Pereira, Anderson, Gonzalez, Keita, Angel, McCown, Pinhasi, or Semal.

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There's nothing to answer. Studies on low levels of maternal slave admixture in Portugal, the unreliable data of a borderline Afrocentric, and old references to primitive "negroid" traits are irrelevant compared to your inability to provide the hard genetic evidence requested of you.

quote:

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You also have no answers for TopDog:

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posted 26 February 2005 09:01 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
...wherein you have no answers for Pereira, Anderson, Gonzalez, Keita, Angel, McCown, Pinhasi, or Semal.

---

quote:

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There's nothing to answer. Studies on low levels of maternal slave admixture in Portugal, the unreliable data of a borderline Afrocentric, and old references to primitive "negroid" traits are irrelevant

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It's your admixture, your 'negroid traits', and your ancestry of which you are in denial and so relevant of course.

That you believe referring to your southern European ancestors as slaves and primitive somehow mitigates this fact is rather sad, yet amusing in a cynical sort of way.

And even your non-answers expose your contradictions:

You deny the existence of pre-historic Black Africans.

Yet when you are [often] confronted with proof of African skeletal remains in pre-historic Europe and Asia, you try a form of rationalisation...that they merely possess 'primitive' negroid traits- negroid traits from Africa.

Africa, where you claim that negroid does not yet exist.

Well, which is it?

Which line of argument is supposed to 'explain'......

Journal of Human Evolution (1972) 1, 307 - 313 "...one can identify NEGROID traits of nose and prognathism appearing in natufian hunters and in Anatolian and MACEDONIAN first farmers (Angel, 1972), probably FROM NUBIA (Anderson, 1969) via the unknown predecessors of Badarians..."

All these Natufians share the same physical type, completely different from that of earlier Palestinians.....presenting certain Negroid characteristics attributable to crossbreeding. - Furon

Choose one course of deceit please and try to keep up with your own contradictions.

Or perhaps you can just add it to the long list of questions to which you have no answers, along with these simple facts

posted 26 February 2005 11:00 AM            

The Natufian Culture in the Levant, Threshiold to the origins of Agriculture

Dr. Ofer Bar-Yosef - Professor of Anthropology at Harvard and Curator of Paleolithic Archaeology in the Peabody Museum

“The climatic improvement after 14,500 B.P. seems to have been responsible for the presence of more stable human occupations in the steppic and desertic belts. Groups moved into areas that were previously uninhabited, from the Mediterranean steppe into the margins of the Syro-Arabian desert. Others came from the Nile Valley, creating an interesting social mosaic. The emergnce of the Natufian culture around 13,000 or 12,800 B.P. was a major turning point in the history of the Near East.”

Thought Posts:
http://www.aee.gr/hellenic/3aee/anthropos/original_contibut/youra_engl.html

A MESOLITHIC CRANIAL VAULT FROM THE CYCLOPE CAVE - YOURA
ISLAND, NORTH AEGEAN (EXTENSIVE SUMMARY)

By Dr. Nickos A. Poulianos - President of the Anthropological Association of Greece

“At Voloshki a total of nine crania (six male and three female) have been found. Six of them are "Protomediterranean" and the other three (male) present also some Negroid features which remind of Mesolithic skulls from the M. East (Debetz, 1955), also similar to some of those from the coasts of N. Africa (Ferembach, 1962). However, they are quite different to the typically Negroid skulls found p.ex. in Kenya (Leaky, 1935) and in Sudan (Greene & Armelagos, 1972).”

Thought Posts:

The Origin Of Races

By Carleton Coon

“But, as we shall see later, there is fair evidence that the ancestors of the Bushmen were full sized people and that they evolved in North Africa…”

Thought Posts:

The People of Lerna

J. Lawrence Angel

“Although the first agricultural inhabitants of the belt from Syria-Israel-Jordan to North Africa were mainly rugged Mediterranean the eastern end of this belt shows some almost Bushmen-like Basic White as well as lateral traits as at Jericho…Egypt includes an almost Mouillian-Negroid early population, linear but with EXTRAORDINARILY BROAD NOSE and heavy and deep mouth region…”

Thought Posts:

The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations

Luis et al.
2004

"A more RECENT dispersal out of Africa, represented by the E3b-M35 chromosomes, expanded northward during the mesolithic. The East African origin of this lineage is supported..."

posted 26 February 2005 01:54 PM            

1. HERODOTUS - THE FATHER OF LIES!!

2. BUDGE - Discredited by his own people!!

3. THE BIBLE - Full of Errors!!

4. OTHER AFROCENTRISTS - Discredited Scholars

5. RACIST EUROPEANS - Irony in itself!!

---------------------------------------------

The bottom line, is that these AFRO-NUTS are only good for ENTERTAINMENT VALUE and A FEW LAUGHS!!

Even AFRICAN AMERICAN SCHOLARS, discredit and explictly denounce their work as NONSENSE, as Mr. Clarence Walker does in his latest book!!

AFROCENTRISM = NONSENSE = AFRO-NUTS = RUBBISH

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Err, why reinvent the wheel?
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001450.html

Quite a list of crackpots.

Personally, I think Horemheb is on crack and Abaza is smoking pot, but hey, to each his own.

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posted 27 February 2005 07:47 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Or perhaps you can just add it to the long list of questions to which you have no answers, along with these simple facts

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Wake up from your dream world, Afronut. I destroyed S.Mohammad's laughable (mis)reading of Briggs a long time ago. The African Type B is similar to Angel's Classic Mediterranean Type B. The only difference is that Briggs' acquired minor Negroid accretions in certain areas of Africa. Any of this ring a bell? Remember the plates of ugly white guys from Angel's book? Don't make me post them again.

The only questions still awaiting answers are these.

posted 27 February 2005 07:56 AM            

quote:

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The only difference is that Briggs' acquired minor Negroid accretions in certain areas of Africa.

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Your backtracking is unconvincing and does not even begin to explain:

In Table 16 we note the same parallels to ancient Lower Nubians that characterize Type B males, and the similarity to Derry's Siwa series is again strong, but we find also a strikingly close resemblance to a series of West African crania from Fernand Vaz in the Gaboon , is still far closer than is the rather tenuous resemblance between the males of Type B and those of Fernand Vaz.

The comparative table for Type B males [Table 15] shows that we are dealing with a variety that is remarkably close to the population of Lower Nubia in the late Predynastic and Early Dynastic periods( el Batrawi, '35), as it is to the much later but nearly identical population of Siwa Oasis in Ptolemaic times (Derry, '27)

Medit. race does not exist. It is a sham, and your dissembling merely help to reveal it as such.

What you accomplished is the following:

a) you aided S. Mohammad in demonstrating how utterly contrived the Medit. race concept is.

b) revealed to us, that you don't actually believe your own rubbish, you merely assert it out of political necessity.

You might as well be working with S. Mohammad, as a 'comic foil'.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001288.html

posted 27 February 2005 08:01 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Wake up from your dream world, Afronut. I destroyed S.Mohammad's laughable (mis)reading of Briggs a long time ago. The African Type B is similar to Angel's Classic Mediterranean Type B. The only difference is that Briggs' acquired minor Negroid accretions in certain areas of Africa. Any of this ring a bell? Remember the plates of ugly white guys from Angel's book? Don't make me post them again.

The only questions still awaiting answers are these.

[This message has been edited by Evil Euro (edited 27 February 2005).]

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posted 27 February 2005 11:49 PM            

quote:

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Fudged data doesn't count as facts Evil Euro, you even took back part of what you said. All you're doing is interpreting the data backwards.

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Which is necessary for him to do, since the fake caucasian race concept was based on the notion that mankind originated in the caucasus mountains of Eurasia - exactly the opposite of what we know to be true today.

Therefore backwards thinking is critical to Disney's ideology.

Caucasian race theory is intellectually castrate. Its modern advocates merely overcompensate for the resultant impotence.

However, many people are willing to be honest, and hence deserve to be taken more seriously....

While the term caucasian is still used for the lack of a better word in describing the peoples of western Eurasia, careful speakers generally limit the term to describe the inhabitants of the Caucasus region of Eastern Europe and Western Asia, especially when describing any specific ethnic or cultural traits.

The word "Caucasian" is still sometimes used in popular terminology, but has no scientific meaning.
http://www.wordlookup.net

Blumenbach declared that Europeans were the most beautiful people in the world, and that the most beautiful Europeans were to be found in the Caucasus mountains of what is now Georgia. His racial categorizations were based on skull measurements, however, rather than skin color, a fact which seriously undermines the validity of using Caucasian as a synonym for "white." The skull that led him to his questionable epiphany had been of a woman from the Caucusus region.

Blumenbach believed that the human species had begun in the Caucusus as well. His reasoning, which eludes my comprehension, led him to conclude that the location of the most aesthetically appealing (to him) humans must also be that of the species' origin. http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=Caucasian

Today, the term Caucasian is largely (and incorrectly) used in the US to refer to individuals of primarily European ancestry. In general, the term should be used to refer to groups living in the Caucasus mountains (e.g. Chechens) that speak Caucasian languages.

So, the long answer is that the members of the so-called Caucasian race aren’t really a valid group, and as such, populations under this Caucasian heading don’t have a common origin. http://www.madsci.org

posted 28 February 2005 07:22 AM            

Briggs' Type B:

• "We find that Type B is also remarkably close to Angel's ('44) Ancient Greek 'Classic Mediterranean' Type B"

  [Briggs, Stone Age Races of Northwest Africa]
  

Angel's Type B:

• "Classic Mediterraneans (Type B: Mytilenean, W. Cretan, and Corinthian of Argive parentage in Plate XL, r, s, and t) are light-boned, almost fragile. They have small, barely dolichocrane heads, pentagonoid in outline in both vertical and occipital views, contracted neck muscle area, and low almost vertical rounded foreheads. Their slender, fine-featured faces have square orbits, thin noses smooth and low in the nasion region, and a triangular taper down to pinched jaws with shallow and pointed chin, weak prognathism, and an overbite linked with subnormal degree of teeth wear. They were probably just below medium stature, gracile, slender-necked, brunet, with black or dark hair. They are virtually identical with ancient Libyans and modern Sicilians, and similar to Upper Egyptians of prehistoric and Early Dynastic dates, and to modern Spanish. Type B is the most homogeneous one, with only slight tendencies in longer-headed, linear-faced and smaller, more squat-faced directions."

  
  
  

  [J. Lawrence Angel. Skeletal Material from Attica, Hesperia, 1945]
  

posted 28 February 2005 08:10 AM            

Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J. Genetic distances between populations obtained by using HLA-DRB1 allele frequencies:

HLA genes allele distribution has been studied in Mediterranean and sub-Saharan populations.

Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, neighbour-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses.

The population genetic relationships have been compared with the history of the classical populations living in the area.

HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and west Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers.

The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years B.C.)
http://www.makedonika.org/processpaid.aspcontentid=ti.2001.pdf

Much to our surprise, the reason why Greeks did not show a close relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed (Tables 5, 6 and Figs 1–3) was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan ethnic groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan and West Africa (Burki-na-Fasso)*.

Although some Greek DRB1 alleles are not completely specific of the Greek/sub-Saharan sharing, the list of alleles is self-explanatory. The conclusion is that part of the Greek genetic pool may be sub-Saharan and that the admixture has occurred at an uncertain but ancient time.

The origin of the West African Black ethnic groups (Fulani, Mossi and Rimaibe sampled in Burkina-Fasso) is probably Ethiopian (26, 27) (Fig. 4). Both the Oromo and Amharic peoples live in the Ethiopian mountains (27). They obviously have in common a genetic back-ground with the west-African groups mentioned above.**

[*Benin Hbs/E3b = west and east africa in greece]

[**PN2 clade Y chromosome = common ancestry of Black Africans, by definition]

Greeks are found to have
a substantial HLA gene flow from sub-Saharan Ethiopianand Black people . This is why Greeks are Mediterranean outliers in various kind of analyses

Multidisciplinary approach:

Linguistic, social, traditional and historical evidence supports an east-to-west migration of peoples through the
Sahel (southern Sahara strip), although this is still debated (26, 27). Thus, it is hypothesized that there could have been a migration from southern Sahara which mixed with ancient Greeks to give rise to a part of the present day Greek genetic background.

Also, the time when admixture occurred could be after the overthrown of some of the Black Egyptian dynasties (Nubian or from other periods) or after undetermined natural catastrophes (i.e.: dryness). Indeed, ancient Greeks believed
that their religion and culture came from Egypt (4, 25).

The genetics simply confirm the linguistic [Ehret, Bernal], anthropological [Angel, Poulianos, Keita, Briggs, Hiernaux] and historical facts. Of course one can always dimply deny the inescapable conclusion reached independantly from all four disciplines, and from dozens of anthropologists, geneticists and historians. Denial is cheap and an easy game to play.

Notes: All genetic cluster and treeness maps are subject to population sample, genetic test methodology and cluster conceptions. This is ultimately true of all such maps. Speaking of which.....back to the drawing board for EuroDisney.

posted 01 March 2005 07:45 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Since Disney has already been shown that his prison photos, bear no resemblance to the Gabonese Bantu-Nubian-Siwa-"Negroid" skeletal remains in question, we will move on.....

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Bingo. Because Briggs' Type B traveled across the Sahara and acquired some Negroid admixture. Angel's did not and remained Negroid-free, as my previous post demonstrated. Hence, S.Mohammad's whole premise collapses.

quote:

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Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J. Genetic distances between populations obtained by using HLA-DRB1 allele frequencies:

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Homeboy, Arnaiz-Villena's methods have been discredited, by Cavalli-Sforza himself, as well as other geneticists.

• Improperly analyzed HLA genes:

  "Even a cursory look at the paper's diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1....

  Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.

  The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans.

  We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit." (Risch, Piazza and Cavalli-Sforza, 2002)

  
  

• Properly analyzed HLA genes:

  "The present study is the first to be performed in Macedonia using high-resolution sequence-based method for direct HLA typing.

  A phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of the high-resolution data deriving from other populations revealed the clustering of Macedonians together with other Balkan populations (Greeks, Croats, Turks and Romanians) and Sardinians, close to another 'European' cluster consisting of the Italian, French, Danish, Polish and Spanish populations. The included African populations grouped on the opposite side of the tree." (Petlichkovski et al., 2004)

We covered all of this stuff a long time ago. Do you have a bad memory? Are you just stubborn? Desperate? Or perhaps it's something else entirely . . .

posted 01 March 2005 07:49 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Of course one can always dimply deny the inescapable conclusion reached...from dozens of anthropologists, geneticists and historians. Denial is cheap and an easy game to play.

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No one knows that better than you . . .

posted 01 March 2005 08:30 AM            

quote:

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Villena's methods have been discredited, by Cavalli-Sforza himself

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"The classification into races has proved to be a futile exercise." "The idea of race in the human species serves no purpose." - Cavalli-Sforza

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
No one knows that better than you . . .

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We learn by doing.

posted 02 March 2005 09:37 AM            

Which explains exactly why.....

"The classification into races has proved to be a futile exercise." "The idea of race in the human species serves no purpose." - Cavalli-Sforza

Have you* found * any * answers?

Or would you rather I just ignore you altogether?