posted 22 February 2005 08:10 AM            

Numerous genetic studies describe Ethiopians, Somalis and Lemba specifically as having a "Caucasoid" racial component, and accompanying maps group them with or near Caucasoid populations, away from Negroids.

No genetic studies describe Greeks, Italians or Spaniards as having a "Negroid" racial component, nor do any maps group them with or near Negroid populations, away from other Europeans and Caucasoids.

Unless the Afronuts can produce some hard genetic evidence that shows otherwise, they have no argument and all of their ramblings about "sub-Saharan E3b" and "Black Africans" are completely immaterial.

That's what it all comes down to.








.

posted 22 February 2005 09:01 AM            

Your concepts of race are outdated and not supported by modern science.

Delude yourself as you will, but your far-fetched claims were utterly destroyed by S. Mohammad, Thought and others.

posted 22 February 2005 09:24 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Bottom line:

Your concepts of race are outdated and not supported by modern science.

Delude yourself as you will, but your far-fetched claims were utterly destroyed by S. Mohammad, Thought and others.

Running off to a new thread in a laughable attempt to 'last word' the discussion is a transparent, sophomoric and ineffectual face-saving maneuver on your part.

---

The civilized minds are on the same page with you on this one.

In the meantime, Evil Euro could perhaps make his "last words" by answering the mountain of very basic questions he failed to answer, in a number of basically 'the same topic' threads.

posted 22 February 2005 09:29 AM            

=============================================

posted 22 February 2005 09:34 AM            

Western values are superior to all others. Why? The indispensable achievement of the West was the concept of individual rights. It's the idea that individuals have certain inalienable rights and individuals do not exist to serve government but governments exist to protect these inalienable rights. It took until the 17th century for that idea to arrive on the scene and mostly through the works of English philosophers such as John Locke and David Hume.

While Western values are superior to all others, one need not be a Westerner to hold Western values. A person can be Chinese, Japanese, Jewish, African or Arab and hold Western values. It's no accident that Western values of reason and individual rights have produced unprecedented health, life expectancy, wealth and comfort for the ordinary person. There's an indisputable positive relationship between liberty and standards of living.

Western values are by no means secure. They're under ruthless attack by the academic elite on college campuses across America. These people want to replace personal liberty with government control; they want to replace equality with entitlement; they want to halt progress in the name of protecting the environment. As such, they pose a much greater threat to our way of life than any terrorist or rogue nation. Multiculturalism and diversity are a cancer on our society, and, ironically, with our tax dollars and charitable donations, we're feeding it.

©2002 Creators Syndicate, Inc.

Contact Walter E. Williams | Read his biography

posted 22 February 2005 10:35 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Numerous genetic studies describe Ethiopians, Somalis and Lemba specifically as having a "Caucasoid" racial component, and accompanying maps group them with or near Caucasoid populations, away from Negroids.

[b]No genetic studies describe Greeks, Italians or Spaniards as having a "Negroid" racial component, nor do any maps group them with or near Negroid populations, away from other Europeans and Caucasoids.

Unless the Afronuts can produce some hard genetic evidence that shows otherwise, they have no argument and all of their ramblings about "sub-Saharan E3b" and "Black Africans" are completely immaterial.

That's what it all comes down to.[/B]

---

I think you need to reconsider your conclusions. Your posts were mostly misinterpretations and distortions. No geneticist has ever grouped Lemba, Ethiopians, and Somalis among “Caucasoids” , by virtue of the fact that two of those populations share some ancestry with Middle Easterners, the logical conclusion would be that they would group closer, but not with “Caucasoids”. No genetic study has ever grouped Somalis with Caucasoids, you simply misinterpreted a study that said Somalis had a ‘detectable’ amount of maternal Caucasoid ancestry in a study that had nothing to do specifically Somali DNA. Lemba, according to the DNA study you referenced, had 50% paternal Semitic admixture, the rest being African in origin. Mathematically speaking, that gives Lemba a grand total of 25% Semitic admixture, hardly grouping them with “Caucasoids” genetically. Indeed you have blatantly misrepresented the information in those genetic studies.

posted 22 February 2005 11:12 AM            

He knows that most geneticists do not make the mistake of ascribing racial nomenclature to haplotypes.

He also knows that genetic study after study has found 'sub-saharan' DNA in Southern Europeans, making the whole notion of racial purity in southern Europe a non-starter.

posted 22 February 2005 11:47 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
TopDog, as you pointed out correctly. EvilEuro is a chronic distortion junkie.

He knows that most geneticists do not make the mistake of ascribing racial nomenclature to haplotypes.

He also knows that genetic study after study has found 'sub-saharan' DNA in Southern Europeans, making the whole notion of racial purity in southern Europe a non-starter.

He clearly does not believe most of his own rhetoric so it's good to see that no one else falls for it either.

---

He's simply good at misrepresenting information in studies. The position that people cluster on a plot has nothing to do with racial affinities, its based on shared ancestry. Thus, if you had three people that are

posted 22 February 2005 11:55 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ABAZA:
If Black Americans, who are about 20% White, would acknowledge their Whiteness as well as their Blackness, this country would be a lot better off as far as racial separation. It is hard to hate someone, who shares your heritage, such as your family and brothers. You should read my thread about Walter E. Williams and the state of Black Education in the U.S.

---

posted 22 February 2005 12:03 PM            

quote:

---

He is simply good at misrepresenting information in studies.

---

Well he's certainly addicted to misrepresentation, I don't know how good at it he is.

Other fallacious tactics of Euro include:

* Insert racial rhetoric into citations and tries to pass it off as direct quote.

* Tries to ignore his own cited sources when they flatly contradict him.

* Uses ad-hominem and ethnic insult to attempt to flame conversations, and so distract attention from the contradictions inherent in his ridiculous claims.

* Response to specific questions with red herring and straw argument which do not in any away address the actual question asked.

Still, it should be useful for all to see 1st hand what has been called the "painful demise of Eurocentrism", so that when similar semantical speciousness is encountered elsewhere it can be dispatched accordingly.

posted 22 February 2005 12:27 PM            

"Africa has no history." Hegel’s disdainful remark has come down to us from the 18th century, echoed not only by contemporary scholars but even, according to The Haldeman Diaries, by a US president. Africa has long lain under the charge that no noteworthy ancient civilizations arose among the myriad Black societies that lived below its Mediterranean regions. The Kelsey Museum of Archaeology’s current three-month exhibition, "Ancient Nubia: Egypt’s Rival in Africa," will go far toward correcting that misimpression.

posted 22 February 2005 12:45 PM            

Here is your reply!!
THE NUBIANS

Dark-skinned Nubians inhabit the narrow valley south of Aswan. Although modern studies have been unable to establish the ancestry of the Nubian people or trace changes in the race through history, they carry predominantly Caucasian genes and appear unrelated to other Africans. These people once farmed the narrow margins of the river, planting palm groves along its edge. Hoisting triangular lateen sails above their boats, they hauled rock, transported villagers, and fished the clear, cold Nile.

A distinct group for centuries, the Nubians (called Medjy) served the pharaohs as traders and elite military forces. (Middle Kingdom models show them marching in precise rows bearing shields and bows or spears.) During the Late Period, Nubians traveled north, invading Luxor to reestablish classical Pharaonic culture.

For centuries, the Nubians have taken great pride in their unique culture, refusing to intermarry, and in spite of centuries of inbreeding, the population shows little ill effect--weak traits must have been eliminated generations ago. In modern times, their pride has led to valiant attempts to maintain their village life even when nearly all of the men worked and lived hundreds of kilometers to the north. Today, transplanted from the lands inundated by the waters of Lake Nasser, these hard-working people are attempting to revive their culture in the face of economic and social pressures.

Village Life

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by fromashes_rise:

dont kid yourself the ancient nubians were not caucasian
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 22 February 2005).]

posted 22 February 2005 12:51 PM            

They just can't win, even the only Sub-Saharan African Civilization, the Nubians, are Not Black Africans.

POETIC JUSTICE !!

posted 22 February 2005 01:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ABAZA:
If Black Americans, who are about 20% White, would acknowledge their Whiteness as well as their Blackness, this country would be a lot better off as far as racial separation. It is hard to hate someone, who shares your heritage, such as your family and brothers. You should read my thread about Walter E. Williams and the state of Black Education in the U.S.

---

posted 22 February 2005 01:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ABAZA:
AFROCENTRIST:

They just can't win, even the only Sub-Saharan African Civilization, the Nubians, are Not Black Africans.

POETIC JUSTICE !!

---

By John Woodford

"Africa has no history." Hegel’s disdainful remark has come down to us from the 18th century, echoed not only by contemporary scholars but even, according to The Haldeman Diaries, by a US president. Africa has long lain under the charge that no noteworthy ancient civilizations arose among the myriad Black societies that lived below its Mediterranean regions. The Kelsey Museum of Archaeology’s current three-month exhibition, "Ancient Nubia: Egypt’s Rival in Africa," will go far toward correcting that misimpression.

you need to be kick off this forum for the racist incorrect crap you keep writing about.
you can't make up your mind if your life depends on it.one minute,the nubians are black the next they are not black.do you always change with the weather like this.
you know damn well that early nubians were unmixed negriod black africans.
that stupid study would be to some extent correct if they were talking about some nubians of very late history in lower nubia and some modern nubians.some modern nubians are part white or have some white mixture just like some whites have some recent black mixture,but most nubians today are still clearly unmixed negriods/blacks and the further you go back you will find that all were that way.nubians come from the southwestern part of africa,so you and that study is dead wrong,and just because you are half white does not make you white.you should know better,and you should know better that there were many early african civilizations all over africa,i guess you forgot how to say mali,ghana etc etc.next you will be putting up articles saying the folks of mali are black,than the next day you will be putting some false crap saying the folks of mali are really white.nothing changes with you.
you racist mindset comes in loud and clear.get OFF the forum,and say off.you need to be banned.

posted 22 February 2005 01:42 PM            

Seriously though, if one goes back to the PreDynastic times, skeletally, there is little to no difference between Nubian and Upper Egyptian remains.

This is why it is necessary for Eurocentrist ideology to also make Ancient Nubia, non Black. (and also why it is a mistake to play into the "Nubia means Black" trap/conception of Nile Valley Africa that too many "Nubianologists" have bought into)

Of relevance to this thread:

quote:

---

journal of Human Evolution (1972) 1, 307 - 313 "one can identify negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in natufian hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and in Macedonian first farmers (Angel, 1972), probably FROM NUBIA (Late Palaeolithic skeletal remains from Nubia. Anderson, 1969) via the unknown predecessors of Badarians.

---

Anthropologists have known the score for the better part of a century.

Southern Europe is heterogeneous and has European, Middle Eastern AND Black African ancestry.

posted 22 February 2005 04:31 PM            

quote:

---

The West Asians or East Africans are not hybrids, but instead the Southern Europeans and the 'Caucasoids' of Middle East are such.

---

Just to clarify my opinion:

I don't think 'race hybrids' exist because it implies 'pure races' to begin with, which also do not exist.

For example, Europeans can be shown to be intermediate between East Asians and Africans.

Does that make Europeans inherently a hybrid race?

And if Europeans should eventually be shown to have Neanderthal DNA as Loring Brace suspects. Does that make them a hybrid race as well?

The concept of pure race vs. hybrid is 99% polemical with little bits of pseudo-science sprinkled in for propaganda purposes.

I concur with SOY Keita on this matter:

Racialists models which imply nonoverlapping gene pools......are outdated.

Finally, Caucasoid is the most utterly phoney term in the history of anthropology, and is destined to go the way of 'hamite' and end up in the trash pile of 'really bad ideas' spawned by 18th century Europeans.

History of a misguided idea:
The concept of a "Caucasian race" was first proposed under those names by the German scientist Johann Friedrich Blumenbach (1752-1840). His studies based the classification of the Caucasian race primarily on skull features, which Blumenbach claimed were optimized by the Georgians, a people living in the Southern Caucasus. Populations, formerly called "varieties," are no longer distinguished by Latin names, according to the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature.

Later anthropologists such as Carleton Coon have further expanded upon the classification of the Caucasian race proposed by Blumenbach, and have subdivided the group into Nordic, Alpine, Mediterranean, and at times Dinaric and Baltic subdivisions.

posted 23 February 2005 05:32 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roy_2k5:
Topdog: The term 'Semitic' is not a racial term but rather a linguistic term. Many Africans are actually Semites, an example being Amharic of Ethiopia. Matter of fact the Semetic tongue actually originated from East Africa. The Lemba most likely don't have any non-African admixture.

Rasol: Well said. The West Asians or East Africans are not hybrids, but instead the Southern Europeans and the 'Caucasoids' of Middle East are such. Sadly, EuroDisney is a shame of his diversity. What can we say though, the truth must prevail even if it hurts one's feeling.

---

“Topdog: The term 'Semitic' is not a racial term but rather a linguistic term. Many Africans are actually Semites, an example being Amharic of Ethiopia. Matter of fact the Semetic tongue actually originated from East Africa. The Lemba most likely don't have any non-African admixture.”

Actually Roy, not all Lemba have the Cohen Modal haplotype gene, found in the Buba clan among the priestly caste. I used “Semitic” instead of West Asian, maybe I should have been more clear.

As for Evil Euro, his conclusions are made solely on the Y-Chromosone.

posted 23 February 2005 07:55 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
I see a whole lot of empty talk...but no hard genetic evidence.

---

Same goes for you, alot of empty misinterpretations but no hard facts.

posted 23 February 2005 08:15 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
Same goes for you, alot of empty misinterpretations but no hard facts.

---

Genetic and skeletal evidence for African admixture in Southern Europe has been provided via, Pereira, Anderson, Gonzalez, Keita, Angel, McCown, Pinhasi, Semal, et al.

posted 23 February 2005 08:51 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Genetic and skeletal evidence for African admixture in Southern Europe has been provided via, Pereira, Anderson, Gonzalez, Keita, Angel, McCown, Pinhasi, Semal, et al.

EuroDisney knows this. EuroDisney starts a new thread in order to evade evidence and questions he cannot answer.

---

Thought Writes:

Dr. Pinhasi seems to believe (personal communication) that in order to contrast the relationship between Natufian's and the "proto-Khosian negroids" of LSA East Africa one should analyze shared derived traits. Mesolithic Natufian remains have higher nasal indices and greater prognathism than the preceeding Upper paleolithic Levantine Ohalo crania. Given the fact that the late pleistocene was marked by increased aridification during the Last Glacial Maximum hot/moist derived traits such as prognathism and platyrrhinism support the genetic record of populations carrying M35 lineages from tropical Africa.

Thought Posts:

Raymond Furon

"Manuel de Prehistorie Generale"

1958

The caves of Erg-el-Ahmar......produced 132 individuals for Miss Garrod. All these Natufians share the same physical type, completely different from that of earlier Palestinians. They are short, about 160 cm. and dolichocephalic. They were probably Cro-Magnoid Mediterraneans, presenting certain Negroid characteristics attributable to crossbreeding...

Thought Writes:

posted 23 February 2005 09:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
I also think you have to ask what you would expect from pre-historic African remains which are directly ancestral to modern Africans. You would expect to see affinities, but not identical representation of current groups, and that is exactly what we have.

---

Thought Writes:

Exactly. Evil E proposes that because modern living West Africans don’t look EXACTLY like LSA East Africans common affinity is disqualified. The issue is not precise affinity but relative affinity when contrasting global populations. I imagine he doesn’t apply the same strict standard to ancient and modern European populations. 14% of the Angel sample from early Neolithic Greece had traits coextensive with Sub-Saharan Africans, does that disqualify modern Greeks from any substantial relationship with ancient Greeks. Keita has addressed this already:

Keita 2004

“Populations should be viewed processually as dynamic entities over time and not “static” entities. The presence of M35/215 lineages and the Benin sickle cell variant in southern Europe illustrates this well.”

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 23 February 2005).]

posted 24 February 2005 12:05 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
[b]Actually Roy, not all Lemba have the Cohen Modal haplotype gene, found in the Buba clan among the priestly caste. I used “Semitic” instead of West Asian, maybe I should have been more clear.

Can someone explain this to me. How does having the Cohen model type make you an Israelite? Why is this the marker? They don't have blood from the Ancient Israelites so what are they basing it off of?[/B]

---

posted 24 February 2005 05:08 AM            

Evil Euro distorted

· “"In general, populations cluster by geographic origin. The most distinct separation is between African and non-African populations. The northeastern-African -- that is, the Ethiopian and Somali -- populations are located centrally between sub-Saharan African and non-African populations."
[Tishkoff et al. (2000) Short Tandem-Repeat Polymorphism/Alu Haplotype Variation at the PLAT Locus: Implications for Modern Human Origins. Am J Hum Genet; 67:901-925]”

Evil Euro is implying that this citation means at least 50% of the Somali Y-Chromosones are “Caucasoid”. The study itself does not make any such implication. It later went on to explain this intermediate position.

These studies suggest a recent and primary subdivision between African and non-African populations, high levels of divergence among African populations, and a recent shared common ancestry of non-African populations, from a population originating in Africa. The intermediate position, between African and non-African populations, that the Ethiopian Jews and Somalis occupy in the PCA plot also has been observed in other genetic studies (Ritte et al. 1993; Passarino et al. 1998) and could be due either to shared common ancestry or to recent gene flow. The fact that the Ethiopians and Somalis have a subset of the sub-Saharan African haplotype diversity and that the non-African populations have a subset of the diversity present in Ethiopians and Somalis makes simple-admixture models less likely; rather, these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998) that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe. These conclusions are supported by recent mtDNA analysis (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999).

[Tishkoff et al. (2000) Short Tandem-Repeat Polymorphism/Alu Haplotype Variation at the PLAT Locus: Implications for Modern Human Origins. Am J Hum Genet; 67:901-925]

How can one draw the conclusion that 50% of Somali Y-chromosones are “Caucasoid” in origin, when the geneticists’ position in this study suggest a recent common shared ancestry? I challenge Evil Euro to explain his distortion and misinterpretation. The data published in that study gave no support to Evil Euro's contention of a non-African origin for 50% of Somali Y-chromosones, Evil Euro simply drew a conclusion from no where.

“Unless the Afronuts can produce some hard genetic evidence that shows otherwise”

You produced no evidence to support your arguments, misinterpretations don't count as hard genetic evidence.

posted 24 February 2005 10:41 AM            

quote:

---

Tanzania, Ethiopia origin for humans
By Paul Rincon

New DNA evidence suggests "African Eve", the 150,000-year-old female ancestor of every person on Earth, may have lived in Tanzania or Ethiopia.

A genetic study has shown that the oldest known human DNA lineages are those of East Africans. The most ancient populations include the Sandawe, Burunge, Gorowaa and Datog people who live in Tanzania.

Researchers found a very high amount of genetic variation, or diversity, between the mitochondrial DNA of different individuals in these populations.

Mitochondrial DNA is passed down exclusively through the maternal line. The longer a population has existed, the more variation accumulates in its DNA lineages.

"They are showing really deep, old lineages with lots of diversity. They appear to be the oldest lineages identified in Africa to date," said Dr Sarah Tishkoff, of the University of Maryland, US, who led the research.

Great resource

The so-called African Eve represents the ancestral mitochondrial genome that gave rise to all the different types seen in people today.

Several of the ethnic groups sampled in the study also live in countries surrounding Tanzania.

"It's entirely consistent with what we expected," said Dr Spencer Wells, a geneticist and author. "All the evidence is pointing to East Africa as the cradle of humanity."

Dr Wells added that the data ties in well with archaeological evidence of a long occupation of East Africa by modern humans and hominids.

But Professor Ulf Gyllensten, a molecular biologist at the University of Uppsala, Sweden, was cautious about claims that the oldest DNA lineages were confined to East Africa.

"I wouldn't be surprised if Dr Tishkoff has found old lineages there, but I think we're just skimming the surface," he said.

"Too little research has been done in Africa to get a clear picture. I don't know why, because it's clear there is a great resource of genetic diversity there," added Professor Gyllensten.

'Click' language

Dr Tishkoff's team have collected mitochondrial DNA samples from 1,000 Tanzanians since they began their research in 2001.

Although the data comes from groups living in Tanzania, the Burunge and Gorowaa migrated to Tanzania from Ethiopia within the last 5,000 years.

SEARCH FOR HUMAN ORIGINS
" The handaxe, which was discovered at an archaeological site in northern Spain, may represent the first funeral rite by human beings "

Dr Tishkoff said Ethiopia was also a good candidate for the region where modern humans evolved.

One of the populations sampled in the study, the Sandawe, speak a "click" language like that of Khoisan people from southern Africa.

The Khoisan were previously thought to possess the oldest DNA lineages, but those of the Sandawe are older. This suggests southern Khoisan originated in East Africa, according to Dr Tishkoff.

"That is surprising, because it has been presumed that the oldest populations were in the south," said Professor Gyllensten. Some of the oldest modern human archaeological sites in Africa are in the south of the continent.

Dr Tishkoff said she planned to carry out further research to narrow down the most ancient East African lineages.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/science/nature/2909803.stm

None of these peoples are remotely Caucasoid or even look Caucasoid, stupid Euro is refuted for since they have the most ancient DNA he cannot say they are Bantu migrants. These people have been here for thousands of years. Another DNA test carried out by same people proved that the oldest males lineages came from East Africa from the same populations. Where are Evil Euros prehistoric East African Caucasoids?

---

posted 24 February 2005 11:53 PM            

Evil Euro wrote:

“On the Y-chromosome, judging by the language in the quote, we can assume that it's close to 50%. That's a whole lot of non-African DNA.”

posted 25 February 2005 07:57 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
Notice Evil Euro's silence after that explanation of the intermediate position- its deafening.

---

But your ignorance registers loud and clear.

posted 25 February 2005 08:58 AM            

quote:

---

Notice Evil Euro's silence after that explanation of the intermediate position- its deafening. Judging by inability to properly read and interpret a study.

---

We have a winner.

EuroDisney exhibits:

* Inability and/or lack of interest in accurately comprehending his own select citations.

* Inability and/or unwillingness to answer the questions begged by the profound contradictions inherent in his irrational ethnocentric ideology.