posted 03 February 2005 08:30 AM            

The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa [resemble] several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. They should not be considered closely related to Europeans. [...] In skin colour, the Tutsi are darker than the Hutu, in the reverse direction to that leading to the caucasoids. Lip thickness provides a similar case: on an average the lips of the Tutsi are thicker than those of the Hutu. [Jean Hiernaux, "The People of Africa"]

But according to Luis et al. 2004, 80% of Rwandan Tutsi Y-chromosomes belong to Bantu haplogroup E3a. Thus, the Tutsi are not representative of pre-historic East Africans, but rather a product of the Bantu expansion, like all modern sub-Saharan Africans. Their dark skin and thick lips were obviously absent in pre-historic East African populations. Such traits (among others) are West African Negroid accretions.

Clearly, the skeletal remains Hiernaux is describing are not those of "Black Africans":

The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region.

posted 03 February 2005 08:55 AM            

quote:

---

Rwandan Tutsi Y-chromosomes belong to Bantu haplogroup E3a

---

EuroDisney is a slow and reluctant learner.

He is finally starting to grasp Jean Hiernaux and the elongated and broad types of indigenous Black Africans.

But he is still painfully confused over the PN2 clade genetics.

Let's help him, by highlighting the parts that he missed first time round in bold face.

quote:

---

There are 18 known haplogroups or top level clades labeled A thru R. Clades have sub clades - which are children of their respective top level clade. The children are known as sister clades in terms of their relationships to each other. Those children in turn have children and so on.
E3a and E3b are sister haplotypes and children of of E3 (pn2 clade). E3, E3a and E3b all originate in Africa. The Pn2 clade is the dominment Y chromosome type in Africa.

The sister clades themselves do not determine phenotype. No clades do. There are elongated and broad African types of E3a and E3b Elongated and broad Africans likely diverge based on morphological adaptation to dry and humid tropical climates respectively. Accordingly both types are Black. The haplotypes originate after the base european asian and australian populations migrated out of Africa and so are not indigenous to those regions.

E3a and E3b appear to have split geographically with E3a carriers generally traveling central west and south, and E3b carriers traveling east north and west.

Haplotypes do not determine language [of course], but E3b is most closely associated with the Afrasan speakers an E3a with Bantu speakers - for instance.

And none of this has anything to do with European peoples [self labeled caucasians] other than that they inherit ithe haplotypes as African admixture either directly or indirectly thru either the Levantine corridor; Egypto/Nubian colonisation in the Agean and Southwest Europe from across the Maghreb during the Moorish occupation

---

IMG]http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v4/n8/images/nrg1124-f2.gif[/IMG]
E3a and E3b are African and form a common clade - The Pn2 clade. A clade is a lineage. A lineage means a common ancestry.

The difference between E3A and E3B

E3a --- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, M2, P1

E3b --- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, M35
http://www.lakeathens.com/dna/Y-DNA-Haplogroups.htm

quote:

---

The Y-chromosome clade defined by the PN2 transition (PN2/M35, PN2/M2) shatters the boundaries of phenotypically defined races and true breeding populations across a great geographical expanse. African peoples with a range of skin colors, hair forms and physiognomies have substantial percentages of males whose Y chromosomes form closely related clades with each other.

---

posted 03 February 2005 09:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
Evil ...rasol and those guys would not know an Eb3 from a 747. Most of what they parrott comes from Afrocentric web sites where the source dropped out of some American ghetto high school. If you breed a 70 IQ mother with a 70 IQ father you will probably come up with a 70 IQ kid, thats what you have with these guys. Good luck.

---

posted 03 February 2005 09:13 AM            

quote:

---

Most of what they parrott comes from Afrocentric web sites where the source dropped out of some American ghetto high school. If you breed a 70 IQ mother with a 70 IQ father you will probably come up with a 70 IQ kid

---

posted 03 February 2005 09:32 AM            

quote:

---

heavy hand and typos not withstanding 70 + 70 = 70 when it comes to IQ's.

---

ROTFL!

Your lack of basic math skills notwithstanding (one word btw), the prevailing theory is that you have a heavy hand with the whiskey glass.

posted 03 February 2005 10:16 AM            

quote:

---

Thought Posts:
S.O.Y. Keita
American Journal of Human Biology
16:679-689 (2004)

"The M2 lineage is mainly found primarily in "eastern", "sub-saharan", and sub-equatorial African groups, those with the highest frequency of the "Broad" trend physiognomy, but found also in notable frequencies in Nubia and Upper Egypt, as indicated by the RFLP TaqI 49a, f variant IV (see Lucotte and Mercier, 2003; Al-Zahery et al. 2003 for equivalecies of markers), which is affiliated with it. The distribution of these markers in other parts of Africa has usually been explained by the "Bantu migrations", but their presence in the Nile Valley in non-Bantu speakers cannot be explained in this way. Their existence is better explained by their being present in populations of the early Holocene Sahara, who in part went on to people the Nile Valley in the mid-Holocene, according to Hassan (1988); this occured long before the "Bantu migrations", which also do not exlain the high frequency of M2 in Senegal, since there are no Bantu speakers there either".

---

posted 03 February 2005 10:29 AM            

Egyptian Origins:

Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley came from south of the Sahara; they were not invaders from the North.
per S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54.
- Lefkowitz.

posted 03 February 2005 10:29 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
keita is a radical Afrocentric, you can disregard almost anything he says.

---

posted 03 February 2005 10:52 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
This is the 21st century, not the 19th, time to get on board the train and out of the past.

---

posted 03 February 2005 09:56 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Their dark skin and thick lips were obviously absent in pre-historic East African populations.

---

Thought Writes:

Where is the OBVIOUS evidence for this strange statement? By the way, if E3b carrying Africans migrated out of NE Africa during the Mesolithic era shouldn't we study the remains from that region during the period in question. What do the remains of NE Africans during the late Pleistocene tell us?

posted 03 February 2005 09:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
What do the remains of NE Africans during the late Pleistocene tell us?

---

Thought Posts:

Journal of Human Evolution
2000 Sep;39(3):269-88.

The position of the Nazlet Khater specimen among prehistoric and modern African and Levantine populations.

Pinhasi R, Semal P.

Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Downing Street, Cambridge, CB2 3DZ, U.K.

posted 03 February 2005 10:11 PM            

Journal of Human Evolution
2000 Sep;39(3):269-88.

The position of the Nazlet Khater specimen among prehistoric and modern African and Levantine populations.

Pinhasi R, Semal P.

Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Downing Street, Cambridge, CB2 3DZ, U.K.

posted 03 February 2005 10:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Posts:

Journal of Human Evolution
2000 Sep;39(3):269-88.

The position of the Nazlet Khater specimen among prehistoric and modern African and Levantine populations.

Pinhasi R, Semal P.

Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Downing Street, Cambridge, CB2 3DZ, U.K.

"Under such circumstances, it is possible that the Nazlet Khater specimen is part of a relict proto-Khosian Negro stock which extended as far north as Nazlet Khater at least until the late part of the Late Pleistocene."

---

Thought Writes:

posted 04 February 2005 03:27 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
The Afronuts are fond of using this quote to establish the racial type of pre-historic East Africans (i.e. E3b-carriers):

The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa [resemble] several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. They should not be considered closely related to Europeans. [...] In skin colour, the Tutsi are darker than the Hutu, in the reverse direction to that leading to the caucasoids. Lip thickness provides a similar case: on an average the lips of the Tutsi are thicker than those of the Hutu. [Jean Hiernaux, "The People of Africa"]

But according to Luis et al. 2004, 80% of Rwandan Tutsi Y-chromosomes belong to Bantu haplogroup E3a. Thus, the Tutsi are not representative of pre-historic East Africans, but rather a product of the Bantu expansion, like all modern sub-Saharan Africans. Their dark skin and thick lips were obviously absent in pre-historic East African populations. Such traits (among others) are West African Negroid accretions.

---

On the contrary, Evil Euro is exposed once again for leaving out passages in a genetic study....

Although the E3a-M2 subclade is prevalent in our East African groups (Tutsi, Hutu, Kenya, and Tanzania) as well, [b]these collections contain several additional Y-chromosomal types and, thus, demonstrate a much higher level of NRY diversity. Therefore, unlike its hegemony in the west, E3a-M2's contribution to the genetic landscape of East Africa was not great enough to completely erase pre-existing Y haplogroups and may have been diluted further by subsequent migratory movements from the north involving other Y chromosomes

From the same study you quoted from, do you always distort and leave out relevant passages? Your post in effect does NOT refuted the notion that Tutsis evolved biologically in East Africa.

posted 04 February 2005 04:11 AM            

The Tutsi are Nilo Saharans. The fact that they are E3a PN2 clade Black Africans just like the Hutu reenforces Hiernaux(s) observations and explodes the Hamite myth that was associated with "Tutsi origins" in the 1st place.

Their elongated phenotype is supposed to illustrate Eurasian descent, according the Hamite myth. It doesn't. Africa is a genetic and phenotypical ocean...Europe, is just something that washed up on the beach. You will never explain African diversity by way of relationship to Europe. Hiernaux knew this.

Hence: There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. They should not be considered closely related to Europeans

This is exactly correct.

posted 04 February 2005 06:14 AM            

quote:

---

S. Mohammad writes: Your post in effect does NOT refuted the notion that Tutsis evolved biologically in East Africa.

---

lol. This thread only exists because EuroDisney caught himself in a lie.

Let's clarify:

* his ultimate objective is to racially 'purify' southern europe.

* DNA from Black AFrica, specifically E3b is present in southern Europe, where it accounts for up to and over 20% of male Y chromosome in Greece. [the dominent male haplotype!]

* He invents the notion of prehistorical whites of East Africa to explain E3b, and rescue Europe's racial purity.

* He needs to explain why East African descendants of the founder sub lineages of E3b (the original E3b population), are Black.

* He wants us to believe that E3b originated among the invisible native prehistoric 'white' men of Africa who were conquered by Bantu 'amazon' women during the Bantu expansion. (this so obscenely rewrites the history of African people, that it couldn't be worse if he added a few Tyranosaurs into the steaming brew of smelly ignorance)

* This 'accounts' for the elongated African phenotype, such as Tutsi and Somali.

That's when he discoverd that the Tutsi were actually E3A, and not E3b. This completely falsifies his theory, so........

* He starts a new thread, inventing an opposite, completely contradictory hypothesis, and frames it as an attack on Hiernaux (!) Bonus points for audacity!

The Tutsi it seems are now a hybred of Black men, and invisible prehistoric 'white women' of Black Africa, who were conquered by Bantu migration Tutsi. (once again, history, linguistics and genetics take a holiday) and just the opposite of the Somali.

Let's continue..... '

posted 04 February 2005 07:31 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Let's help him, by highlighting the parts that he missed first time round in bold face.

---

It's hilarious the way you quote yourself, complete with highlighted passages, as if you were some kind of authority. Of course, I'm not interested in your Afro-theories. I'm only interested in the facts that disprove Hiernaux:

"The joint occurrence of E3a-M2 and E3b-M35 chromosomes in the East African (Tanzania and Kenya) and Central African (Hutu and Tutsi) populations (fig. 1) represents a convergence of independent demographic events. The E3b-M35-related lineages may be a legacy left by earlier inhabitants. As indicated above, E3a-M2 was most likely introduced into the region later by Bantu speakers from the west." (Luis et al. 2004, Am J Hum Genet)

posted 04 February 2005 07:39 AM            

quote:

---

It's hilarious the way you quote yourself, complete with highlighted passages, as if you were some kind of authority.

---

Why else does Thought2 resort to asking you the same question 3 TIMES, and counting?

posted 04 February 2005 07:52 AM            

quote:

---

As indicated above, E3a-M2 was most likely introduced into the region later by Bantu speakers from the west." They're not indigenous East Africans. Hiernaux blew it. Case closed.

---

posted 04 February 2005 11:48 PM            

Central Africans from the Cameroon who have the stereotypical "True Negro"/Broad African phenotype actually have higher frequencies of European specific lineages than the Elongated East African Oromo. This demonstrates the simplicity and confusion expressed by Evil Euro through his "Caucasoid East African" theory.

posted 05 February 2005 06:41 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
You really are lost aren't you?

---

No one is more lost than you . . .

"...E3a-M2...Tutsi...later...Bantu speakers from the west."

"...E3a-M2...Tutsi...later...Bantu speakers from the west."

"...E3a-M2...Tutsi...later...Bantu speakers from the west."

"...E3a-M2...Tutsi...later...Bantu speakers from the west."

"...E3a-M2...Tutsi...later...Bantu speakers from the west."

"...E3a-M2...Tutsi...later...Bantu speakers from the west."

"...E3a-M2...Tutsi...later...Bantu speakers from the west."

"...E3a-M2...Tutsi...later...Bantu speakers from the west."

"...E3a-M2...Tutsi...later...Bantu speakers from the west."

posted 05 February 2005 06:58 AM            

The Twa held sway over much of the mountainous terrain until around the 11th century, when Hutu farmers migrated into the region and displaced them. A few hundred years later the Hutus were subjugated by the warrior-like and pastoralist Watutsis, who came down from either Ethiopia or southern Sudan in the 16th century

The Tutsi minority came to share the same language as the Hutu

cattle-raising people of central Africa, particularly in Burundi and Rwanda; they are also known as Watusi or Batusi. The original Tutsi homeland was probably in Ethiopia, and c.400 years ago they migrated south to around Lake Kivu

The Tutsi are spectacularly tall, often 7 ft (2.1 m) in height of probable Nilotic stock

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/africa/rwanda/history.htm

"We don't use terms like Bantu or Nilotic" - Bashi Mayi Mayi http://www.cic.nyu.edu/pdf/stephenjackson.pdf

posted 05 February 2005 10:39 AM            

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

posted 05 February 2005 11:57 AM            

quote:

---

One thing stupid Euro has failed to address is why do Tutsis look so distinct from 99% Bantu speakers and why do they look more akin to East Africans.

---

Correct. The original lie was that Elongated types were hybred of Non Black AFrican E3b male and expansionist Bantu Amazon women.

Now he's figured out that Tutsi are E3A....
this means he needs some white women to mate them with and make hybreds out of them too.

This is the exact opposite of his original theory, which of course is moot anyway, since E3A and E3b are sister clades proving a common recent ancestry regardless of race rhetoric.

I've been baiting him on this point since reply 1.

I guess he's still consulting with the Arthor Kemp website and Dienekes blog's looking for a way out of the parodox.

posted 05 February 2005 11:58 AM            

quote:

---

rasol:

EuroDisney's ignorance of Tutsi history Exposed!

---

Here is a mapping of binary markers in 8 African populations, and 1 Omani population. Following is broader look of the snippets that have already been discussed) (courtesy of University of Chicago journals)

"There exists a west-to-east as well as a south-to-north clinal distribution with respect to E3a-M2. Bamileke and Benin display the highest frequencies (100% and 95.0%, respectively), Kenya and Tanzania show intermediate values, and Oman (7.4%) and Egypt (2.8%) exhibit relatively low percentages of this subclade. In sub-Saharan Africa, the east-to-west clinal distribution of E3b-M35 is inverse to that displayed by E3a-M2. The percentage of these M35 haplogroups is >35% in Tanzania and Egypt, whereas it is less than half of that value in Oman and Kenya. The level of this mutation is **very** low in the Tutsi and the Hutu samples (<3% in both) and drops to zero in the more western populations of Cameroon and Benin...

The sub-Saharan NRY haplogroup distribution displays distinctive regional patterns. Of particular interest is an east-west partitioning of sub-Saharan haplogroup diversity. To the west, Benin, Bamileke, and southern Cameroon are represented predominantly by chromosomes carrying the E3a-M2 mutation, a signature of the recent expansion of Bantu populations (Passarino et al. 1998; Scozzari et al. 1999; Underhill et al. 2001b; Cruciani et al. 2002). Although the E3a-M2 subclade is prevalent in our East African groups (Tutsi, Hutu, Kenya, and Tanzania) as well, these collections contain several additional Y-chromosomal types and, thus, demonstrate a much higher level of NRY diversity. Therefore, unlike its hegemony in the west, E3a-M2's contribution to the genetic landscape of East Africa was **not great enough to completely erase pre-existing Y haplogroups** and may have been **diluted** further by subsequent migratory movements from the north involving other Y chromosomes. The patterns we have observed are, for the most part, consistent with and may provide additional support for published hypotheses concerning African population dynamics (Underhill et al. 2001b; Cruciani et al. 2002)...

..**Kenya is the northern limit of E3a-M2**, whereas J-12f2, described as a marker of the Neolithic expansion (Semino et al. 2000), extends southward only as far as Ethiopia…

…When taken in context with previous studies, the current NRY data seem to reflect the linguistic boundaries demarcating southern Kenya as **the northern limit** of the Bantu speakers as they progressed eastward through the Central African corridor and southward along the Swahili coast. Kenya displays an E3a-M2 frequency of 52%, whereas the more northern populations, such as Ethiopia (Underhill et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2002), the Ethiopian Jews (Cruciani et al. 2002), and Sudan (Underhill et al. 2000), are characterized by frequencies **close to or at zero**.…

The joint occurrence of E3a-M2 and E3b-M35 chromosomes in the East African (Tanzania and Kenya) and Central African (Hutu and Tutsi) populations (fig. 1) represents a convergence of independent demographic events. The E3b-M35related lineages may be a legacy left by earlier inhabitants. As indicated above, E3a-M2 was most likely introduced into the region later by Bantu speakers from the west."

Note: Time and again, the northernmost occurrence of E3a in East sub-Saharan Africa almost ends at Kenya, which means this cannot be used to explain why the Somalians or Ethiopians look the way they do. And again, Bantu expansions cannot account for the “Negroid/Tropical” appearance of these East Africans. There is indeed only a **small occurrence** of E3b among the Central African population (Tutsi and the Hutu: see above study), as opposed to the E3a, and yet this has no bearings on the Tutsi phenotype.

Add this to Thought2’s earlier comment:

quote:

---

Central Africans from the Cameroon who have the stereotypical "True Negro"/Broad African phenotype actually have higher frequencies of European specific lineages than the Elongated East African Oromo. This demonstrates the simplicity and confusion expressed by Evil Euro through his "Caucasoid East African" theory.

---

posted 05 February 2005 07:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:

[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 05 February 2005).]

---

Thought Writes:

I would just add that in the Luis et al study, only Northern Egyptians were sampled and used to represent all of Egypt. Hence in Southern Egypt E-M2 is found in higher frequencies than Northern Egypt where there has been substantial migration from Eurasia during the historic epoch.

posted 05 February 2005 08:47 PM            

quote:

---

Thought Writes:

I would just add that in the Luis et al study, only Northern Egyptians were sampled and used to represent all of Egypt...

---

Right. The study makes that perfectly clear throughout the analysis, so as to avoid any unnecessary confusion. This is what the map is also depicting.

But idea of the map is to show just how small the E3b component is among the Tutsi.

posted 06 February 2005 07:52 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
You can all hypothesize and rationalize as much as you want, but it won't change the fact that the Tutsi have recent West African ancestry. Therefore, they don't represent pre-historic East Africans. Hiernaux was wrong. Period.

---

You are wrong you dumbass, Tutsis have the phenotype that groups them with prehistoric East Africans and not with recent Bantu speakers. You are wrong, dumbass! And wh do you keep running from this...

Therefore, unlike its hegemony in the west, E3a-M2's contribution to the genetic landscape of East Africa was **not great enough to completely erase pre-existing Y haplogroups** and may have been **diluted** further by subsequent migratory movements from the north involving other Y chromosomes

Dumbass!!

posted 06 February 2005 09:56 AM            

The green in the map shows the African Pn2 clade.

The map shows the common ancestry of Africans with elongated and broad phenotypes.

West Asian haplotypes (j) and European (g) have little to do with most African peoples.

By contrast the incursion of the green E3 haplotypes in West Asia and southern Europe documents the admixture from Black Africa.

The Greeks for example have 25% Pn2 haplotype - 25% Y Chromosome from Black Africa - 25% African daddy gene.

Anthropologists have known where this game from LONG BEFORE molecular genetics cross verified it, over and again:

Journal of Human Evolution (1972) 1, 307 - 313 "...one can identify NEGROID (Ethiopic or Bushmanoid?) traits of nose and prognathism appearing in natufian hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and MACEDONIAN first farmers (Angel, 1972), probably FROM NUBIA (Anderson, 1969) via the unknown predecessors of Badarians..."

*
"HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks" (2) translation: "genes HLA of the Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of Greek"
published in "Tissue Antigens 2001".

Moreover, EuroDisney knows this perfectly well. His laughable efforts to attack Hiernaux is therefore a redd herring, and merely reveals his own ignorance of African history and people.

posted 06 February 2005 10:02 AM            

The incursion of E3 into southern Europe isn't shown, but the greeks have 25% Y chromosome from Black Africa.

posted 06 February 2005 10:05 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
You can all hypothesize and rationalize as much as you want, but it won't change the fact that the Tutsi have recent West African ancestry. Therefore, they don't represent pre-historic East Africans. Hiernaux was wrong. Period.

---

posted 06 February 2005 11:35 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
You can all hypothesize and rationalize as much as you want, but it won't change the fact that the Tutsi have recent West African ancestry. Therefore, they don't represent pre-historic East Africans. Hiernaux was wrong. Period.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 06 February 2005 04:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
[B] Thought Writes:

The point is that there are Africans from the M2 branch of the PN2 Transition who do not fit the stereotypical "True Negro" morphology. There are other African's who do fit the stereotypical "True Negro" morphology and have little or no M2 lineages but carry the E3b lineages at a frequency of about 23%. Underill et al. studied the Surma and Berta people from the Sudan in a 2000 study

---

Bingo. Rasol is right about the significance of understanding the PN2 clade relationship of Africans, but as we can deduce from the map (besides being general knowledge), physical appearance is independent of either E3a and E3b lineages. However, we can note their (E3a, E3b and other lineages) expansion: Evil Euro's rational seemed to be, that Bantu migrations must have altered the original phenotype of not only the Tutsi, but also the East Africans. Not only do studies show that there is almost no E3a-M2 subclade in the Horn of Africa people, but it is also general knowledge that there are no Bantu speakers among them. The predominant lineage among the Tutsi is the E3a one, which nevertheless, has no bearing on their appearance. Since the E3a-M2 subclade appears to be the prevalent among Bantu speaking populations, it would indeed show if one can attach any signifance to Bantu contact, as Evil Euro attempted to do. Additionally, "Bantu" is not a phenotype; however trivial this may seem, it is not the first time someone has tried to treat it as such. It is a language group.

posted 07 February 2005 01:14 AM            

quote:

---

EuroDisney writes: You can all hypothesize and rationalize as much as you want

---

Seems EuroDisney'World is as ever big on fantasy, but none too perceptive when it comes to irony. Do let us know when you find your lost whites of ancient Africa, will you?

posted 07 February 2005 07:37 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
A clade in biology defines a common ancestry.

---

Indeed. Negroids (E3a) and Caucasoids (E3b) are both descended from a common undifferentiated ancestor (PN2). Just like Mongoloids (Q) and Caucasoids (R1b) are both descended from the ancestral M45.

quote:

---

"HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks" (2) translation: "genes HLA of the Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of Greek"
published in "Tissue Antigens 2001".

---

I knew one of you idiots would cite that study eventually. I should've guessed it would be your dumb ass. Of course, the methods of Arnaiz-Villena have been discredited, and his findings rejected, by top geneticists. Read very carefully:

http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2004/09/study-clarification-ii.html

quote:

---

His laughable efforts to attack Hiernaux is therefore a redd herring

---

rasol reacts to being proven wrong . . .

posted 07 February 2005 07:47 AM            

quote:

---

Indeed.(E3a)(E3b) are both descended from a common undifferentiated ancestor (PN2).

---

quote:

---

Just like (Q) (R1b) are both descended from the ancestral M45.

---

Why go on pretending to not understand this?

And where are your prehistoric whites of Black Africa?

In fact, they don't exist, and you have no argument. You're wasting your time.

posted 07 February 2005 07:50 AM            

quote:

---

I knew one of you idiots would cite that study eventually. I should've guessed it would be your dumb ass.

---

We knew we'd get a shrill reaction out of you. And as for why we don't link to your website; why bother? For a laugh we simply bring you here......

If you don't like

* Arnaiz-Villena 2001, "Sub Saharan origin of the Greeks", there always.

* "Richards 2000 Sub-Saharan mtdna Hapologroups in Greece", and then there's the....

* Semino et al - E3b, the most common male chromosome in Greece "originated in eastern Africa", or...

* Sanchez 2003 - the most frequent Y chomosome sub clade "originates in Somalia"

You get the picture.....

Greek Tennis star Pete Sampras.

posted 07 February 2005 07:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Negroids (E3a) and Caucasoids (E3b) are both descended from a common undifferentiated ancestor (PN2).

---

Thought Writes:

posted 08 February 2005 08:03 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
....the common ancestry of Black Africans EAST AND WEST,and NOT an ancestor of the whites of Europe. ....a common ancester of some Eurasians.

---

Incorrect. Just as the carriers of Q and R1b branched off into different directions and became different races, so did the carriers of E3a and E3b. We are talking about the Upper Paleolithic after all, not a couple hundred years ago. Why go on pretending to not understand this?

quote:

---

Black East and West Africans.

---

Provide a reliable, non-Afrocentric source that describes pre-historic East Africans as Negroid.

quote:

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* "Richards 2000 Sub-Saharan mtdna Hapologroups in Greece", and then there's the....

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Incorrect. No sub-Saharan mtDNA has ever been detected in Greece, and only a single A Y-chromosome has ever been found. Greeks have less Negroid ancestry than the English and the Dutch.

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* Semino et al - E3b, the most common male chromosome in Greece "originated in eastern Africa"

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posted 08 February 2005 08:15 AM            

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Originally posted by rasol:
....the common ancestry of Black Africans EAST AND WEST,and NOT an ancestor of the whites of Europe.

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Incorrect. Just as the carriers of Q and R1b branched off into different directions and became different races

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You can define 3 races of M45 as some Nordics do......(Nordic, Asian, and Hybrid Southern European) or 300, or 3000. It won't help you. As it has no bearing on the PN2 clade, which is not related to whites of Europe in any case. That is the point. It destroys your entire argument. And you evade it, because you know it's true.

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so did the carriers of E3a and E3b.

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posted 08 February 2005 08:18 AM            

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Provide a reliable, non-Afrocentric source that describes pre-historic East Africans as Negroid.

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Why? That's your terminology not mine.
And the fact that you can't define your own terms is what makes it jibberish.

Even so, you already provided such a reference. See "EuroFool's own source debunks him": http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001502.html

" As early as the 8th millennium B.C., a Negroid element appeared......the first known inhabitants of Ethiopia"
- Different Genetic Components in the Ethiopian Population