posted 08 February 2005 03:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Greeks have less Negroid ancestry than the English and the Dutch.

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Thought Writes:

1) Define your terms. What is a "Negroid" in scientific terms?

2) In that E3a and E3b CLEARLY derive from a common source, lay out your chronology for the appearance of "Negroid" and "Caucasoid" phenotypes?

posted 08 February 2005 03:50 PM            

quote:

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So I have
Just a couple questions. Do all negroid people fall under the E3 clad, do Ethiopians fall under this clade as well, and What clade would North african Arabs and regular Arabs fall under?

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There are even older Haplogroups such as A and B (red and blue on the map above) which predate Out-of-Africa and which are parent to the E Haplogroup.

E Haplogroup has 3 related Branches, E1, E2 and E3. E1 and E2 are found only in Africa. E3 is most common and in turn hs 2 sub-clades which are defined by a specific Y chromosome mutation called P2. This is a genetic signature effectively. Anyone who is Pn2 E3a or E3b is therefore a direct decendant of the common male ancestor. Somali, Zulu, Tutsi and Hutu and Taureg for example are all related substantially to each other, and they are not related to Europeans. Europeans migrated out of Africa before the PN2 transition. Consequently, E3 Haplotype did not reach Europe for 20,000 years after its African origin.

This exposes the fallacy of applying a European race catagory, 'caucasian' or whatever to E3 Black Africans which is completely ridiculous and defies the logic of of genetics and ancestry.

You can also see in the map above the intermixture of West Asian haplotype J (the Arabs) and East African E3b in both North Africa AND West Asia. [green and orange]

Whereas E3b spread from East Africa into the middle east along with the Neolithic [the beginnings of agriculture], J spread into Africa primarily as a result of the Arab/Islamic expansion.

"Ancient Egypt" would therefore have been primarily E3 (a and b), and not J. And European lineages penetrate the delta region primarily from the Ptolemic and post Pharoanic times.

One more point: many Nilo Saharan's are predominently E3a. The Tutsi migrated into Rwanda from the North East and are likely Nilotic (ethnically).

Black African phenotype - basically broad headed vs. longheaded, has little to do with E3a vs. E3b and more to do with adaptation to dry vs. humid climate, and since populations migrate, this issue is complicated and requires tracing population history.
http://www.geogene.com/images/geogeneYwallchart.pdf

posted 09 February 2005 08:11 AM            

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Originally posted by rasol:
Incorrect and fails to address the point of the common ancestry of East and West Africans, and their distinction from white Europeans.

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When it comes to Y-chromosomes, East and West Africans don't have common ancestry. Ethiopians are related to North Africans, West Asians and Europeans, and unrelated to West, Central and Southern Africans. I know that makes you unhappy, but it's a fact.

quote:

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Why? That's your terminology not mine.

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posted 09 February 2005 08:20 AM            

quote:

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No, it's scientific terminology

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Thought Writes:

1) Define your terms. What is a "Negroid" in scientific terms?

2) In that E3a and E3b CLEARLY derive from a common source, lay out your chronology for the appearance of "Negroid" and "Caucasoid" phenotypes?

quote:

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The Y-chromosome clade defined by the PN2 transition (PN2/M35, PN2/M2) shatters the boundaries of phenotypically defined races and true breeding populations across a great geographical expanse. African peoples with a range of skin colors, hair forms and physiognomies have substantial percentages of males whose Y chromosomes form closely related clades with each other.

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This conversation concludes with your inability to address the above. If you can't answer the questions, please bring in someone who can. Bring on Deniekes!

posted 11 February 2005 06:58 PM            

For Kham:

According to genome researcher Rick Kittles approximately only 30% or so of blacks carry European Y chromosome signatures---regardless of phenotype. And even that percentage may be too high because Mark Shriver, molecular geneticist, claims that the European admixture--both mtDNA and Y chromosome--in the black U.S. population is just 17%. Kittles also showed that MtDNA signatures for blacks in the U.S. are approx. 5%.

In places like Haiti and Jamaica--where most blacks in the Central American region reside--the Y signatures are much lower--less than 10%.

But it should be borne in mind that
MtDNA and Y signatures need nor correspond with phenotype. Pushkin the great Russian poet had an East African grandfather(?) which led to Pushkin being quite noticeable in the Russia of his time. But his living Russian descendants are indistingushable from other Russians even though the males would carry an African Y signature.

In fact the same kind of thing happened to Mark Shriver. He was amazed to find out--through and analysis of his own genome--that he had both Native American and African ancestors--even though he looks completely white. Shriver also points out that approximately 10% of white Americans also have at least one African ancestor. They would demonstrate this most likely by way of the MtDNA signature. This fact is explainable by the peculiar American phenomenon known as "passing".

There is even the claim that the British Royal Family has recent(last 500 years) African ancestry through the Italian Medicis and the Spanish Royal family.