posted 02 February 2005 04:58 PM            

Let's become Egyptologists...
rasol?
alTakruri?
Kem-Au?
supercar?
Thought2?
King_Scorpion?
Lamin.G?
S.Mohammad?
Anybody??

posted 02 February 2005 05:16 PM            

I've said before, the concept of African history as North Africa vs. South of the Sahara is a false dichotomy.

We know this for a fact, since the languages and cultures and genes that historically predominate in the North come from the South.

To understand the once wet Sahara we have to imagine the Sahel grassland zone extending from where it is now well up into Ta Seti (Nubia) and Ta Shemu (Upper Egypt).

It's clear that the Kemetians had a deep knowledge of tropical African flora and fauna, and there are cases where specific Geography such as "Punt" has been generally located based upon the plants and animals that were brought from there.

What interests me is this: To what extent could the mdw ntr be influenced by, say...cueniform, given that so many of the plants and animals have a tropical African origin.

What is of interest is the earliest hieroglyphic symbolism.

Remember, we are talking about the origins of "writing". One of the most difficult and abstract of human achievements. The symbolism in mdw ntr has to reflect that which is most deeply embedded and familiar in Kemetic culture.

With that in mind: http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/bestiary/ , to start with.

I know that Thought earlier posted some interesting information on ancient North African climate as well.

ps -> I believe in History....Egyptology, i'm skeptical of.

posted 02 February 2005 06:01 PM            

Here is a working hypothesis from an author, whom some will question, but nevertheless still worth exploring (strengths & weakness) the ideas provided within:

quote:

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The Proto-Saharan writing was first used to write characters on pottery (Winters 1980), to give the ceramics a talismanic quality . Similar signs appear on Chinese, Harappan, South Indian Megalithic, Libyan and Cretan pottery (see figure 1). These signs were invented by the Proto-Saharans for purposes of communication. These pottery signs agree with the so-called linear Egyptian signs mentioned by Petrie (1921, p.83). They frequently appear on Egyptian pottery . ..
The Egyptian pot marks in Upper and Lower Egypt. Petrie (1900) was the first to record the Egyptian potmarks. These potmarks are found on pottery dated to Dynasties O to I (van den Brink 1992). These Thinite potmarks published by van den Brink (1992) agree almost totally with the Oued Mertoutek, Gebel Sheikh Suleiman, Harappan, Proto-Elamite and Proto-Sumerian
SYLLABIC WRITING
It is clear that a common system of record keeping was used by people in the 4th and 3rd millennium B.C. from Saharan Africa, to Iran, China and the Indus Valley. Although the Elamites and Sumerians abandoned the Proto-Elamite writing and the Uruk script respectively, in favor f cuneiform writing, the Dravidians, Minoans (EteoCretans) and Manding continued to use the Proto-Saharan script (see figure 2) (Winters 1985c).

The oldest Proto-Saharan inscriptions come from Oued Mertoutek and Gebel Sheikh Suleiman. These inscriptions are over 5000 years old (Wulsin 1941; Winters 1983a ).

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Source: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/anwrite.htm

Other developments in Egyptian script...

quote:

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From 1998:
The earliest writing ever seen may have been discovered in southern Egypt. The hieroglyphics record linen and oil deliveries made over 5,000 years ago.

The find challenges the widely-held belief that the first people to write were the Sumerians of Mesopotamia (modern-day Iraq) sometime before 3000 BC.

The exact date of Sumerian writing remains in doubt but the new Egyptian discoveries have been confidently dated to between 3300 BC and 3200 BC using carbon isotopes.

"It was thought that Sumerians were earlier in writing than Egypt," said Gunter Dreyer, director of the German Archaeological Institute in Egypt.

"With our findings, we now see it's on the same level and this is an open question: was writing invented here or there?"

It was possible that Sumerians who traded with Egypt copied their inscriptions, Dr Dreyer said. "But we have to wait for further evidence," he warned, saying publication of his results would appear in early 1999.

Momentous find

Archaeological experts hailed the find as momentous. "This would be one of the greatest discoveries in the history of writing and ancient Egyptian culture," said Kent Weeks, Professor of Egyptology at the American University in Cairo...

The writings are line drawings of animals, plants and mountains and came mainly from the tomb of a king called Scorpion in a emetery at Abydos, about 400 km (250 miles) south of Cairo....

The newly discovered Egyptian writings also show that the society then was far more developed than previously thought, Dreyer said.

He said man's first writings were not a creative outpouring but the result of economics: when chieftains expanded their areas of control they needed to keep a record of taxes. Although the Egyptian writings are made up of symbols, they can be called true writing because each symbol stands for a consonant and makes up syllables.

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Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/521235.stm

So in 1999, we get:

quote:

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A number of experts agree that these inscriptions are the earliest alphabetic writing yet discovered and their location has forced a rethink on the origins of writing...

Semetic writings from Egyptian script:

Scholars had thought that these languages - known as Proto-Sinaitic and Proto-Canaanite - had been developed from Egyptian hieroglyphs.

But this new evidence has prompted the theory that the development took place in Egypt itself, during the period of the Middle Kingdom.

Dr Darnell believes that scribes among foreign mercenaries serving with the Egyptian army developed the simplified writing - initially through the work of hieroglyphic scribes who simplified the pictograms into a rudimentary alphabet for use by Semitic speakers.

This is well before the probable time of the Biblical story of Joseph being delivered into slavery in Egypt, so predating the traditional seeds of a Semitic presence in Egypt.

Greek origins

So far, scholars who have studied the inscriptions have not managed to translate them, but they have succeeded in deciphering some letters.

M is formed of a undulating line deriving from the hieroglyph for water, very similar to the later Semitic letter for M.

An ox head gradually transforms into the letter A, and a house develops into the Semitic B, or bayt.

A and B were later developed by the Phoenicians and latter-day Canaanites before being passed to the Greeks between 1200 and 900 BC.

From the Greek words for A and B - alpha and beta - we derive the word alphabet.

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Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/521235.stm

Needless to say that new discoveries always shed light to what is already known. Moreover, the Egyptian influence on ancient Greek literature directly and indirectly, cannot be overemphasized.

posted 02 February 2005 07:32 PM            

Maybe, but from what I can tell, seems more like Mdu Nter; I think I see the Kemetian word "Hek" (governor, ruler), the images aren't clear enough...

Keep in mind that for most Western historians, their criteria is mostly of finding records, such as business transactions, since this is all they could find from Sumer...

But we still need to post the flora and fauna determinative glyphs and identify them...

For example, which is neither flora nor fauna, where are the types of boomerangs or 'throwing sticks' from?
What's the story on this weapon?
--The ebony tree?
--Where's Keino, isn't he a medical student? He had to have taken Botany...

C'mon y'all, where are the glyph determinative images?

Let's have some fun!

posted 02 February 2005 07:53 PM            

quote:

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Wally:

Keep in mind that for most Western historians, their criteria is mostly of finding records, such as business transactions, since this is all they could find from Sumer...

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...Which is not necessarily a bad place to search for clues. I can agree with the idea that writing had been enhanced for the purpose of keeping records of changing seasons, business transactions, and some instances religious teachings. In this case, scholars had come to the idea of Semetic languages developing among Semetic folks in the Egyptian military, from Egyptic script.

quote:

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Wally:

For example, which is neither flora nor fauna, where are the types of boomerangs or 'throwing sticks' from?
What's the story on this weapon?

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Have to admit that I wasn't aware of such glyph..you have an example of this?

posted 02 February 2005 08:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
Have to admit that I wasn't aware of such glyph..you have an example of this?

[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 02 February 2005).]

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--Also, how about the lion glyph (E:22,23 -F:4); now the lion is not king of the jungle, since he doesn't live in the jungle but rather on the plains, how far north in Africa do we find the lion?

???

posted 02 February 2005 08:22 PM            

quote:

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Wally:

Originally posted by Super car:
Have to admit that I wasn't aware of such glyph..you have an example of this?

Yes, and so do you. It's T:14,15
http://www.jimloy.com/hiero/gardner3.htm

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Yes, I was able to see your link; it appears you had posted it while I was writing my notes. Anyway, I see where you are going with the following...

quote:

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Wally:

--Also, how about the lion glyph (E:22,23 -F:4); now the lion is not king of the jungle, since he doesn't live in the jungle but rather on the plains, how far north in Africa do we find the lion?

???

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Some of these animals, unless the timeline suggests otherwise, maybe explained by Egyptian contacts with the people of Punt. For instance, I know of no Giraffes in North Africa, but within the vicinity of Southern Ethiopia-Kenya. But definitely an interesting way of exploring these symbols.

BTW, biohistory of some of these animals might prove useful, in the event that contact with other peoples doesn't agree with the origins of the symbols. For instance, we see depictions of Giraffes in the Saharan rock-art.

posted 02 February 2005 08:49 PM            

However the Lion was also Native to Asia. The Syrians were quite familiar with them.

Of course the hippo and crocodile were Native to the Nile.

posted 03 February 2005 01:37 PM            

Item:
-- how about the sign under R: Temple Furniture & Sacred Emblems, #10 which reads "? - Ntr - km "; what does it look like to you, anyone? Is the "?" sign the glyph for the letter "G", looks like it to me...

http://www.jimloy.com/hiero/gardnerg.gif

What we really need to nail are those symbols (if any) that identify items which weren't native to Egypt, which excludes the asp, frog, etc...

posted 03 February 2005 03:20 PM            

By the New Kingdom Kemet was a very cosmopolitan Empire, and writing was several thousand years old.

posted 03 February 2005 03:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
It's the earliest texts that hold the key.

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posted 03 February 2005 03:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:
This is going good...

Item:
-- how about the sign under R: Temple Furniture & Sacred Emblems, #10 which reads "? - Ntr - km "; what does it look like to you, anyone? Is the "?" sign the glyph for the letter "G", looks like it to me...

http://www.jimloy.com/hiero/gardnerg.gif

What we really need to nail are those symbols (if any) that identify items which weren't native to Egypt, which excludes the asp, frog, etc...

[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 03 February 2005).]

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