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Author	Topic: The Moors
King_Scorpion Member Posts: 71 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 18 January 2005 08:17 PM Can someone tell me about them please. Were they arab or african? I know they were forced to convert, but someone I'm arguing with claims blacks never created anything...you know the typical racist. He brought up the Moors and I only know them by name. IP: Logged
Wally Member Posts: 517 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 18 January 2005 08:31 PM quote: Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Can someone tell me about them please. Were they arab or african? I know they were forced to convert, but someone I'm arguing with claims blacks never created anything...you know the typical racist. He brought up the Moors and I only know them by name. a) try searching this forum; the Moors have been discussed before. b) according to C.A. Diop, the Moors were Arabs from Yemen c) keep in mind that the root cause of Racism is a deep seated fear of another ethnic or racial group. Knowone, however irrational that person might be, is in the least bit intimidated by someone they feel innately superior too, in fact they are very comfortable around such an individual... In this instance, the 'Blacks never created anything', isn't something they particular believe; their main point is to get you to believe it! Ever read about the 'ol "Blacks can't play sports" routine? -- same thing [This message has been edited by Wally (edited 18 January 2005).] IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 1696 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 18 January 2005 08:51 PM Interesting subject. Moors can be said to be African and Arab, with some Spanish as well. And perhaps the Berber component is the most significant. It isn't an ethnic group per se. The term Moors comes from Greek mauros meaning dark. Not many people know this but the Romans used Moor for a time generically to describe Africans in a way similar to earlier Greek use of Ethiopian. The Romans often used Mouros interchangably with terms like Afer and Ethiopian. The Arabs conquered or converted much of North Africa to Islam around 700 AD. And these African/Arab peoples swept into Spain and conquered much of Southern Europe: During the medieval era, the Arabs/Moors successfully cut the Europeans off from the rest of the world. Moslems literally barricaded the Europeans into their own continent and rarely permitted them to come in or out. Europeans could not travel in Africa or Asia, because the Moslem armies prohibited such mobility. Marco Polo was one of the few Europeans to travel outside of Europe in the late 1200sAD. - Greg Gordon The Moors who conquered Southern Europe were diverse have been linked to many different African Ethnic Groups including Hausa (Nigeria) and Taureg (Mali). Good topic. IP: Logged
Wally Member Posts: 517 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 18 January 2005 09:04 PM quote: Originally posted by rasol: Interesting subject. Moors can be said to be African and Arab, with some Spanish as well. And perhaps the Berber component is the most significant. It isn't an ethnic group per se. The term Moors comes from Greek mauros meaning dark. Not many people know this but the Romans used Moor for a time generically to describe Africans in a way similar to earlier Greek use of Ethiopian. The Romans often used Mouros interchangably with terms like Afer and Ethiopian. The Arabs conquered or converted much of North Africa to Islam around 700 AD. And these African/Arab peoples swept into Spain and conquered much of Southern Europe: During the medieval era, the Arabs/Moors successfully cut the Europeans off from the rest of the world. Moslems literally barricaded the Europeans into their own continent and rarely permitted them to come in or out. Europeans could not travel in Africa or Asia, because the Moslem armies prohibited such mobility. Marco Polo was one of the few Europeans to travel outside of Europe in the late 1200sAD. - Greg Gordon The Moors who conquered Southern Europe were diverse have been linked to many different African Ethnic Groups including Hausa (Nigeria) and Taureg (Mali). Good topic. I agree completely with your analysis. What really fascinates me is how this small group of Yemeni families from a small country managed to conquer all of northern Africa and southern Europe, or -how that 'tiny' English island had empires all over the globe, and -how 'tiny' Japan held sway in eastern Asia, humbling even the mighty nation of China... Is it the old axiom that it's not the quantity but the quality of something that is the more important element?... [This message has been edited by Wally (edited 18 January 2005).] IP: Logged
ABAZA Member Posts: 767 Registered: Nov 2004	posted 18 January 2005 09:31 PM Rasol, This reply of yours is quite factual for a change!! Every afrocentrist, would say that the Moors are Black and Black only, because that is how they were described by the Europeans. The Black-a-Moors, many were actually not Black or Negro, but were darker than the White Europeans. This only shedds light on the fact that when a European calls a Group Black, does not mean that they're Black Negros or Black Africans. Rasol, I'm really surprised that this came from you...... Someone recently on this board, called the people of Mauritania (Land of the Moors), Black Native Africans. It it seems that Herodutus had the same myopic vision as the other early Europeans about, when they described certain Africans. Just a little food for thought!! quote: Originally posted by rasol: Interesting subject. Moors can be said to be African and Arab, with some Spanish as well. And perhaps the Berber component is the most significant. It isn't an ethnic group per se. The term Moors comes from Greek mauros meaning dark. Not many people know this but the Romans used Moor for a time generically to describe Africans in a way similar to earlier Greek use of Ethiopian. The Romans often used Mouros interchangably with terms like Afer and Ethiopian. The Arabs conquered or converted much of North Africa to Islam around 700 AD. And these African/Arab peoples swept into Spain and conquered much of Southern Europe: During the medieval era, the Arabs/Moors successfully cut the Europeans off from the rest of the world. Moslems literally barricaded the Europeans into their own continent and rarely permitted them to come in or out. Europeans could not travel in Africa or Asia, because the Moslem armies prohibited such mobility. Marco Polo was one of the few Europeans to travel outside of Europe in the late 1200sAD. - Greg Gordon The Moors who conquered Southern Europe were diverse have been linked to many different African Ethnic Groups including Hausa (Nigeria) and Taureg (Mali). Good topic. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 1696 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 18 January 2005 09:48 PM quote: Rasol, This reply of yours is quite factual for a change!! Your reply is incoherent Abaza. Some things never change. IP: Logged
alTakruri Member Posts: 300 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 18 January 2005 10:46 PM Moor is a slippery term in the extra African world and Moorish identity varies through time. At the origin of our word Moor is the Greek word mauros an adjective meaning dark applied as a Latin noun Maurus denoting the people of the Roman province Mauritania consisting of what is now the north parts of western Algeria & Morocco. Procopius History 3.13.29 reports: quote: And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired. So the first Moors so named by the Greeks and Romans were North African Imazighen aka Berbers notably darker than the north Mediterraneans and some other Imazighen. Not long after the above quote was written Arabs and Arabized "middle easterners" and Iranians professing Islam overcame Amazigh resistance last led by queen Dahya alKahina of the Aures in eastern Algeria. Though technically part of Numidia rather than Mauritania all these Imazighen adopting Islam and under Arab orders invading and successfully conquering what is now southern Spain came to be called Moros. 150 years later ibn Qutayba wrote down Wahb ibn Nunabbih opinion: quote: Kush and Kan`an's descendants are the various races of blacks: Nubians, Zanj, Qaran, Zaghawa, Ethiopians, Copts, and Berbers. Maur started out as a north Mediterranean concept of a specific North African region but after the birth of al Andalus aka Muslim Spain, the term Moor came to generally mean African Muslim in the European languages. Though the Black a Moor is the Moor that mostly captures our view there were also Tawny Moors and White Moors. Their ascent in Europe survives in surnames of their European descendents: Moore, Blackmoor, Tanimer, Whitmore, etc. The term Black a Moor is a contraction of the phrase Black as a Moor. The dominant image of a Moor as literally black, though they were a variety of complexions, is because of two Andalusian dynasties that arose from what is now the modern nation of Mauretania. They were the al Murabitun and al Muwahhidun which included large numbers of what are now Senegalese who are among the blackest skinned people on earth. Many of the Zenaga al Mulathimun were themselves very dark. The legacy of the Roman age Mauritanii and the Moros of al Andalus live on in the names of Morocco and Mauretania. To Africans the Amazigh people of those countries are the Moors and not the Gnawa people of the Sahel and Savanna. In particular the Mauritanians are the Maurs divided into Beydan white Maurs and Haratin black Maurs. Though some Fulani and Wolof have Mauritanian citizenship that stretches back to pre Almoravid days they are not Maurs nor do they seek to call themselves Maurs. Yemini Arabs penetrated to Mauritania a thousand years ago and eventually became the ruling class among the Beydani which also includesZenaga. The peculiar Hasaniya dialect of Arabic is theirs but these Yeminis are by no means the origin of the Maurs in fact being the last people and the only Arabs to acquire the name Moor which properly belongs to the northwest Africans. The Gnawa or western Sudanese are not Moors. The Gnawa attribute the destruction of the Songhai empire to a Moorish invasion from Morocco. The descendents of the Moroccan conquest of Songhai, which included Spaniards and I think Scotts in their invasion force as well as genuine Moors, are known as the Arma. I dont think any ethnic group located below the Sahara between the Atlantic and Lake Chad other than the Arma call themselves Moors. Its the Euros who indiscriminately threw the word Moor around to the point that even Indians and Filipinos were called Moors. . [This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 18 January 2005).] IP: Logged
kembu Member Posts: 48 Registered: Aug 2004	posted 18 January 2005 11:05 PM quote: Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Can someone tell me about them please. Were they arab or african? I know they were forced to convert, but someone I'm arguing with claims blacks never created anything...you know the typical racist. He brought up the Moors and I only know them by name. They were African with slight Turkic (Ottoman Moslem) admixture. Phenotypically, they are not too far removed from the coastal Carthaginians. There are Moorish people in Mauritania, Mali, Western Sahara (Sarawi) and Tunisia. Watch the musical "Otello" starring Placido Domingo as Otello and pay close attention to the scene where he was taken as a slave in Africa by Arab horsemen. The depiction of the Moorish people in that scene is the most accurate I have seen to date. Well, of course, Placido had to be made over to resemble a Moor. His skin was darkened and his hair was made frizzier than it naturally is. I guess they used him for his voice. But they did quite a good job in trying to capture the Moorish phenotype. He might as well be cast as Hannibal. It's a great movie. My advice to you is, don't get into argument with people who make claims that black (African) people never created anything. Like their claim, they're pretty lame. So why waste your precious time on people like that. Let them wallow in their ignorance and stupidity. IP: Logged
Horemheb Member Posts: 561 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 19 January 2005 08:58 AM This thread is typical of this board. The Moors start out being arabs, which they were, and by the end of the thread they have turned black. I'm waiting for the black slavs to show up here. IP: Logged
Roy_2k5 Member Posts: 32 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 19 January 2005 09:05 AM quote: Originally posted by Horemheb: This thread is typical of this board. The Moors start out being arabs, which they were, and by the end of the thread they have turned black. I'm waiting for the black slavs to show up here. If you were some sort of God-like figure then I would believe you dogmatically. However, since you are not, we require to see some credible scientific sources. Currently, such sources have not been postes, hence your ranting is meaningless. Why even refer to Slavs? Do understand that your racist posts is rather hypocritical. The Germanic people were also slaves in Ancient Rome, and considered Barbarians by the Greeks. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 1696 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 19 January 2005 09:11 AM More on Moors : Moors and Arabs: When the Romans entered West Africa in 46 B.C., they saw Africans and called them Maures, from the Greek adjective Mauros, meaning dark or black. It is from Mauros and the Latin term Marues that the word Moor is derived. Since the inhabitants of North Africa were black, the Romans and later the Europeans called them Moors. It is no coincidence that the land inhabited by the Moors was called Mauritania and Morocco, meaning "Land of the Blacks." In the beginning of the seventh century, the Arab prophet, Muhammad, began to preach the word of Islam. Consumed with religious fervor, the Arabs sought to spread Islam and conquer the world. By 708, the Arabs had overrun North Africa. Consequently, Moors in large numbers accepted Arabic as the national language and converted to their conqueror's religion, Islam. After the fall of the Roman Empire (fifth century), Spain was held by a barbaric white tribe, the Visigoths. Though they were Christians, their brand of Christianity was cruel and unjust. For this reason, Spain's Jews, serfs, and slaves looked favorably upon the arrival of a new civilization in which they would be able to live free of persecution. Tarik, a great African chief, was given the rank of general in the Arab army and sent to raid Spain. On April 30, 711, Tarik landed on the Spanish Coast with 7,000 troops. His troops consisted of 300 Arabs and 6,700 native Africans (Moors). An ancient source, Ibn Husayn (ca. 950, recorded that these troops were "Sudanese", an Arabic word for Black people. The Moors were unstoppable, and Visigothic Spain ceased to be. The few resisting Visigoths fled to the caves of the Cantabrian Mountains. Later in the century, the cave dwellers would venture out of the Cantabrian Mountains and reclaim parts of northern Spain. The Moors of Africa were the real conquerors. When the Arabs arrived, the hardest part of the job had been done. Instead of treating the Moors fairly, the Arab chiefs assigned themselves the most fertile regions. The dissatisfied Moors were not long in coming to blows with the Arabs. (The History of Spain by Louis Bertrand and Sir Charles Petrie - published by Eyre & Spottiswood, London, 1945, page 36). Ultimately, the Moors acquired two-thirds of the peninsula, which they named Al-Andulus. Al -Andulus was obliged to pay tribute to the Arab Caliph (King) of Damascus. As Al-Andulus acquired its own identity, its bond with the Caliph began to weaken. In 756, Al-Andulus proclaimed itself an independent state. Thus, its only links to the Arabs would be the Islamic faith and the Arabic language. The Moorish architectural remains in Cordoba, Seville, and Granada prove conclusively that these cities were more prosperous and artistically more brilliant than any Christian cities in Europe at the time. The Moors of Al-Andulus held the torch of leaning and civilization when the rest of Europe was plunged in barbaric ignorance. If Moorish Spain had been an accomplishment of the Arabs it would have been called Arab or Arabic Spain. Instead it bears the name of its creators, the Moors, i.e., Moorish Spain. - Yvonne Clark IP: Logged
fromashes_rise Junior Member Posts: 4 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 19 January 2005 09:18 AM prof horembed shakespeares othello was a moor and he was black , you should know that IP: Logged
Horemheb Member Posts: 561 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 19 January 2005 09:26 AM Othello was black relative to the Europeans in the play. We know who the Moors were and Shakespeare is not one of the historians we use in that area. IP: Logged
Horemheb Member Posts: 561 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 19 January 2005 09:36 AM Roy, First lets cut the 'racist' charge. In the second place son I do not rant. This is typical black radical response, 'you must be a racist if you don't agree with me.' Problem is Roy that this entire board is based on racism. Almost every thread gets back to making some kind of racial point. The objetct here is to use history for racial political purposes. these guys all know who they are and what they are trying to do. The rest of us know as well. That is why mainstream Egyptology rejects their point of view. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 1696 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 19 January 2005 09:44 AM This is a good thread Horemheb. Please contribute something to our knowledge of the Moors. If you can't do so, then just read and don't respond at all. Stop trolling. Thank you. IP: Logged
Horemheb Member Posts: 561 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 19 January 2005 10:06 AM from what I am reading rasol you have about as much knowledge of the Moors as you do basic sophomore Western Civ 201. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 1696 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 19 January 2005 10:35 AM quote: Originally posted by Horemheb: [B]from what I am reading From what you're writing, it appears that you do not know how to read. Move along professor. IP: Logged
Horemheb Member Posts: 561 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 19 January 2005 10:45 AM What academic slime pit did you drag Yvonne Clark out of rasol? If your going to post information make it from non political sources please. That post was complete nonsense. Once again , check your basic Western Civ 201 text and lets cut the black politics. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 1696 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 19 January 2005 10:53 AM Miss Clark at least knows the difference between you're and your, unlike you Professor. Now run along if you have nothing constructive to contribute. Stop trolling. IP: Logged
fromashes_rise Junior Member Posts: 4 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 19 January 2005 10:56 AM prof horemheb just look up the ancient: the "corsica" coat of arms, the "escutcheons" coat of arms IP: Logged
Horemheb Member Posts: 561 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 19 January 2005 11:02 AM Miss Clark, for your information, is a black radical speaker based in Los Angles. She puts out the same non academic garbage you put forth on this board. Just because you hate white people rasol and cannot come to terms with your obvious feelings of inferiority does not neccisitate founding your arguments on the work of non scholars. If you post information by people like Yvonne Clark you are going to get called on it. IP: Logged
alTakruri Member Posts: 300 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 19 January 2005 11:10 AM Look at this! You all let it keep happening. Out of 20 posts only 8 are on topic. Once again a thread has been hijiacked by a reactionary and diverted to white supremist ideaology. Wake up people. Learn to ignore the ignorant and keep the train on the tracks, please. IP: Logged
Horemheb Member Posts: 561 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 19 January 2005 11:18 AM takruri, You would not know a white supremist if you ran into one. Most of the stuff on this board is radical garbage, some of us have the need to point that out and possibly save a mind here and there. You can't have a historical discussion when people want to use Yvonne Clark and marcus Garvey to make their points. This black thing just has some of you people obsessed, you can't get past your skin color to live in the world. I'll bet you get up every day of your life thinking about being black. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 1696 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 19 January 2005 12:01 PM quote: Out of 20 posts only 8 are on topic. Actually that's not bad for this forum. You may expect too much given the inability to ban posters. If you get upset, you just encourage trollers, since that's what they want. Why even discuss them? Back to the topic. The Moors: The Islamic West 7th-15th centuries David Nicholle Several peoples were involved in the remarkable military hist5ory of the Islamic West. The Berbers predominated throughout North Africa and the Sahara. To the south were Berber speaking peoples, African in appearance. The introduction of the camel in the medieval period meant that the Sahara bacame a bridge between North and sub-Saharan Africa. This allowed Islam to spread into Western Africa, and enabled Black African warriors to play a dramatic role in southern European history. The historical facts on the Moors are actually not in serious dispute. Most of the topical posts essentially concur. Does anyone have fundamentally different information to share? IP: Logged
EGyPT2005 Member Posts: 65 Registered: Aug 2004	posted 19 January 2005 03:04 PM quote: Originally posted by Horemheb: takruri, You would not know a white supremist if you ran into one. Most of the stuff on this board is radical garbage, some of us have the need to point that out and possibly save a mind here and there. You can't have a historical discussion when people want to use Yvonne Clark and marcus Garvey to make their points. This black thing just has some of you people obsessed, you can't get past your skin color to live in the world. I'll bet you get up every day of your life thinking about being black. Horemheb, Your posts are irrelevant, just as you are irrelevant. So, as rasol just stated, back to the topic at hand please! IP: Logged
King_Scorpion Member Posts: 71 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 19 January 2005 04:18 PM I believe the Moors were a mostly black african people with some arab admixture. But not enough to be that important. IP: Logged
Horemheb Member Posts: 561 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 19 January 2005 04:22 PM 2005, I must be making my points to get that kind of emotional reaction. Rasol operates off emotion. He quotes these radical scholars and then complains when he doesn't get a response. This board is all about feeling inferior, all about blaming the evil white man and holding on to that old black victim philosphy. The level of basic ignorance on this board may be too much to overcome. IP: Logged
Roy_2k5 Member Posts: 32 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 19 January 2005 05:03 PM quote: Originally posted by Horemheb: Roy, First lets cut the 'racist' charge. When did I call you racist on my prior post in this thread? I stated that you feel think that your opinions matter because of your race. Most of the "afrocentrics" have posted plenty of proper sources, unlike YOU. quote: In the second place son I do not rant. Secondly, you are a hilarious individual. You have been ranting for a long time, and yet have provided credible sources for your claim. Instead of ranting, you ought to focus on proving that: i) Moors were Arab. ii) Arabs = Caucasoid Come on atleast provide some source rather than the ancient white supremist crap you been raised with. quote: This is typical black radical response, 'you must be a racist if you don't agree with me. You are a very paranoid individual. For your information, I am not really even Black. quote: Problem is Roy that this entire board is based on racism. Almost every thread gets back to making some kind of racial point. The objetct here is to use history for racial political purposes. these guys all know who they are and what they are trying to do. The rest of us know as well. I don't know. Most of the "afrocentric" posts tend to make Egypt appear greater than before. For example, they proven that Egypt were writing before the Sumerians, nor was it a younger civilization. Even if they were going into racial topics, they did prove that the Egyptians were Negroid. They used Western AKA White sources to prove it, and they were not from country/trailer park people, they were from well educated linguists, egyptologists, etc. I think we cannot criticize such sources without presenting a stronger source. quote: That is why mainstream Egyptology rejects their point of view. Mainstream Egyptology? I swear I thought Discovery Channel only gathers anything about Egypt from mainstream Egyptologists. The King Tut and Nefertiti images do look pretty Black or Negroid to me. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 1696 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 19 January 2005 05:30 PM quote: I believe the Moors were a mostly black african people with some arab admixture. The Arabs - Asiatic and Black, are very important to Moorish culture because they sparked (directly and indirectly) the conversion of indigenous West and NorthWest Africans to Islam. Still Moor is distinct from Arab, it is most closely 'associate' with Berber [Black and otherwise] muslims, although not all Berbers were Moors either. There are many very specific European accounts of Moorish armies which are stated to have hailed from the Sudan, and other parts of inner-Africa. Most important thing is that Moor is neither an ethnicity nor nationality. It's a group of Africans and Arab muslims both Black and non-Black who conquered most of Spain and dominated much of Europe for centuries. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 19 January 2005).] IP: Logged
supercar Member Posts: 1282 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 19 January 2005 06:01 PM quote: Originally posted by rasol: Most important thing is that Moor is neither an ethnicity nor nationality. It's a group of Africans and Arab muslims both Black and non-Black who conquered most of Spain and dominated much of Europe for centuries. [/B] That is the main point that needs to be highlighted. It really doesn't matter much what race the Moors were, but what is more significant, is that the Moors were Africans, who conquered Spain and southern Europe. From North to South, African developments will remain African, as is the case with other parts of the globe. IP: Logged
alTakruri Member Posts: 300 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 19 January 2005 08:20 PM By and large, when it comes to al Andalus aka Muslim Spain the Imazighen and certain Islamized Gnawa were Moors whereas the Arabs and Arabized east Mediterraneans, Iraqis, and Iranians were Saracens. To nonAfricans there may be confusion over who are Moors but in Africa the Hasaniya speaking Beydan and Haritin of Mauritania are the Moors. They are the only people in Africa other than the few Arma along the Niger, who call themselves Moors. Many of the inhabitants of the original old Mauretania were pushed south by the Arabs. This is why Moor is such a slippery term because its definition and application to anyone, except the Mauritanians and Arma, is an externally imposed identity and will vary through time and according to the country of the observer using the word Moor. So for those who are not continental Africans, who is a Moor boils down to a cojoint Muslim and African identity that lumps together people who do not or did not consider themselves ethnically, nationally, or culturally related. For an example as to how imprecise this word really is, consider the patron saint of Germany, St Maurice the Moor. IP: Logged
alTakruri Member Posts: 300 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 19 January 2005 10:33 PM Sorry but I just couldnt resist the irony on this and it aint Thursday just yet. http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/grunewal/grunewa4.jpg St. Moritz (Maurice) the Moor (a black man dressed as a soldier; patron saint of the militant Order of Teutonic Knights, who were forcibly converting the Slavs to Christianity--or else). http://www.wisc.edu/arth/ah330/charles.html quote: Originally posted by Horemheb: This thread is typical of this board. The Moors start out being arabs, which they were, and by the end of the thread they have turned black. I'm waiting for the black slavs to show up here. IP: Logged
Roy_2k5 Member Posts: 32 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 19 January 2005 10:39 PM Yemenis Arabs and even Saudi Arabs are mainly dark/black skinned, with Dravidian-like features. However, the elite Arabs or those from Hijaz are white. This means that the term Moor could be applied to the Arabs too. IP: Logged
Roy_2k5 Member Posts: 32 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 19 January 2005 10:45 PM Take a look at St. Maurice's actual statue: Straight from Magdeburg, Germany! IP: Logged
supercar Member Posts: 1282 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 19 January 2005 10:53 PM Some folks would swear that such stuff, various stationed in the West as we speak, don't exist. But it is right there; in their face. IP: Logged
alTakruri Member Posts: 300 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 19 January 2005 11:11 PM Close up of statue face [This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 19 January 2005).] Well it was a close up at the source. [This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 19 January 2005).] IP: Logged
supercar Member Posts: 1282 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 19 January 2005 11:16 PM deleted [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 19 January 2005).] IP: Logged
ausar Moderator Posts: 3020 Registered: Feb 2003	posted 20 January 2005 01:41 AM quote: Yemenis Arabs and even Saudi Arabs are mainly dark/black skinned, with Dravidian-like features. However, the elite Arabs or those from Hijaz are white. This means that the term Moor could be applied to the Arabs too. This is true that the lower classes in Yemen have an Austric[Dravidian,veddoid element]. Many people from Sadui Arabi come from historic hajjis pilgrims,slaves, and soliders. During the time of the phophet Mohammed[pbuh] many Habesha[Ethiopians] came to Mecca and also controlled parts of Yemen for awhile. IP: Logged
ausar Moderator Posts: 3020 Registered: Feb 2003	posted 20 January 2005 01:45 AM alTakruri, the irony of this is St. Maurice actually came from Upper Egypt[Southern Egypt] around the Luxor area. He is also a Coptic saint held in high reguard. He was part of the Theban league of soliders who were stationed in parts of Europe by the Romans. IP: Logged
alTakruri Member Posts: 300 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 20 January 2005 11:05 AM quote: Originally posted by ausar: alTakruri, the irony of this is St. Maurice actually came from Upper Egypt[Southern Egypt] around the Luxor area. He is also a Coptic saint held in high reguard. He was part of the Theban league of soliders who were stationed in parts of Europe by the Romans. Ausar You hit the nail square on the head! Yes, this is why I offered him as an example of how slippery the word Moor is in the European mind and their obsession with the Black a Moor that could make nearly any kind of black anywhere into a Moor regardless of their bonified ethnicity or nationality. No way an Upper Egyptian of the 3rd century was ever a Moor since during that time period Mauretania was clear across the continent at the NW and no ancient writer ever correlated Maurs to Egyptians. Only after the Muslim conquest of the southern parts of Iberia did he become a Moor even though he was an Egyptian Coptic Christian. It doesnt serve African history for scholars to perpetuate the same nonsense instead of recknoning Moors as first the Mauretanians and now the Mauritanians both of whom were and are overwhelmingly Imazighen. All the rest to me is just slight of hand magnification. IP: Logged
supercar Member Posts: 1282 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 20 January 2005 11:23 AM AlTakruri, that is a good point you just made. However slippery the usage of the 'Moor' term became, this is what is important to take from Muslim conquests of southern Europe (pointed out earlier in the thread): "Islam to spread into Western Africa, and enabled Black African warriors to play a dramatic role in southern European history." [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 20 January 2005).] IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 1696 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 20 January 2005 12:07 PM quote: No way an Upper Egyptian of the 3rd century was ever a Moor since during that time period Mauretania was clear across the continent at the NW and no ancient writer ever correlated Maurs to Egyptians Lol. It seems that we can add Moor to our list of most often confused terms relating to African history. * Ethiopia * Nubia * Egypt * Berber * Moor IP: Logged
alTakruri Member Posts: 300 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 20 January 2005 12:28 PM quote: Originally posted by Roy_2k5: Yemenis Arabs and even Saudi Arabs are mainly dark/black skinned, with Dravidian-like features. However, the elite Arabs or those from Hijaz are white. This means that the term Moor could be applied to the Arabs too. The Arabs including Yeminis are more red (brown and lighter) than black (brown and darker). Unless youre using Moor as a code word for dark/black skinned the only Yemini Moors are the ones heavily or actually predominently mixed with Zenaga Imazighen in Mauritania. At least thats my personal experience and opinion. Moor has a precise definition Mauretanian/Mauritanian. To call anyone else Moors is to impose an identity label on them that they themselves do not recognize or accept. It doesnt help historical investigation to allow everyone from Iberia to Senegal to Egypt to Mozambique to the Arabian peninsula to the Fillipines to be Moors. They all have their separate actual identities and accomplishments. quote: Originally posted by ausar: This is true that the lower classes in Yemen have an Austric[Dravidian,veddoid element]. Many people from Sadui Arabi come from historic hajjis pilgrims,slaves, and soliders. During the time of the phophet Mohammed[pbuh] many Habesha[Ethiopians] came to Mecca and also controlled parts of Yemen for awhile. I think Muhammed was born in the Year of the Elephant which marked the end of Ethiopian rule over Arabia as a consequence of the excesses of Dhu Nawas. But this was last not the first time there was shared government across the Bab el Mandeb. Long in the past the Horn and the Yemen was a Two Shore Empire just like the later Morocco and al Andalus. This is why both Yemen and Ethiopia claim Bilqis aka Makeda as an ancient queen of theirs. So we have Saba or Sheba after Kushitic and protoSemitic speakers found their way to the Arabian peninsula. The black connection is African more so than Austric especially when culture and history are consulted not to discount the fact that Ethiopis, Yemenis, and Deccan Indians have intermarried throughout time. Theres the prominence of the cDe allele of the Rh gene, called the African chromosome, in Yemenis from Habban in particular. The Fy*O allele is another African marker and its occurence is even higher than cDe in Yeminis and Habbanis. Nor are the African elements further north of the Yemen due to migrants from the late Islamic era with its hajjis and slaves. Arab origin mythos name two distinct ancestors, Qahtaan (pure southerners) and Adnan (mixed northerners), and the three way division of their society into: al-'Arab ul-'Aribah (South Arabian "Kushites" of the oldest purest civilization and blood lines) al-'Arab ul-Muta'aribah (mixed in upon the southerners) al-'Arab ul-Musta'ribah (foreign-origin arabized settlers) See al Jahiz for more on the preIslamic Arabian blacks and how the reds attitude toward them changed after Islam, introduced by the Muta'aribah. IP: Logged
Horemheb Member Posts: 561 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 20 January 2005 12:53 PM Supercar... Is it true that Eric the Red was really black? you know it could be that in Viking lore red really means black or it could be that one of those black Moorish knights wantered up to Denmark and began an entire line of black Vikings !!!! have you heard the rumor that julius caesar was actually black? I know it sounds crazy but, as in all the other topics we talk about on our board, it COULD be true....lets just say it is. IP: Logged
Kem-Au Member Posts: 820 Registered: Feb 2003	posted 20 January 2005 12:58 PM quote: Originally posted by alTakruri: I think Muhammed was born in the Year of the Elephant which marked the end of Ethiopian rule over Arabia as a consequence of the excesses of Dhu Nawas. But this was last not the first time there was shared government across the Bab el Mandeb. Could you please expand on this? I'm not familiar with any of it, particularly the excesses of Dhu Nawas. IP: Logged
Kem-Au Member Posts: 820 Registered: Feb 2003	posted 20 January 2005 01:00 PM quote: Originally posted by Horemheb: Is it true that Eric the Red was really black have you heard the rumor that julius caesar was actually black? I've heard those rumors. IP: Logged
supercar Member Posts: 1282 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 20 January 2005 01:01 PM quote: Originally posted by Horemheb: Supercar... Is it true that Eric the Red was really black? you know it could be that in Viking lore red really means black or it could be that one of those black Moorish knights wantered up to Denmark and began an entire line of black Vikings !!!! have you heard the rumor that julius caesar was actually black? I know it sounds crazy but, as in all the other topics we talk about on our board, it COULD be true....lets just say it is. Horemheb, you have a choice. You can deal with reality stuff that is right in front of you; or you can chose to live in the 19th century mindset wonderland. It is safe to say that you've decided to waste your mind in engaging in the latter. IP: Logged
alTakruri Member Posts: 300 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 20 January 2005 01:11 PM quote: Originally posted by supercar: AlTakruri, that is a good point you just made. However slippery the usage of the 'Moor' term became, this is what is important to take from Muslim conquests of southern Europe (pointed out earlier in the thread): "Islam to spread into Western Africa, and enabled Black African warriors to play a dramatic role in southern European history." [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 20 January 2005).] Yes the Europeans were most impressed by the al Murabitun and al Muwahhidun who were mainly Zenaga Imazighen and Gnawa Atlantics found on either side of the river Senegal. These people became the Moors par exellant in the European psyche but the Luso Hispanics did not consider their own familiar nonMuslim Gnawa slaves and servants as Moors whereas in the British Isles nonMuslim Gnawa were called Moors, like Elen and Margaret More and Peter Moryen free favorites and courtiers of queen Margaret and king James of Scotland. IP: Logged
Horemheb Member Posts: 561 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 20 January 2005 01:18 PM supercar...I think you were the one who obviously did not understand the 'basic concepts' of western civ I gave you the other day. Here is the point...this is all a bunch of pure crappola. Every main line scholar writes how ignorant this Africanists nonsense is. It doesn't mean that everything you say i s wrong but in most cases you are starting from the wrong premise. if you were a real historian you would pick and field of stidy and try to make a contribuition to the body of knowledge. You wouyld not spend endless hours talking about why the Egyptians were black or showing a statue of spome black worrior and imply that it meant much. Historians are interested in history, you are not. You are interested in blackness and racial politics. Why is that supercar? Bob Brier does write this kind of nonsense, he's interested in Egyptology. Time to grow up and get into a legitimate field where you can make a real contribution. IP: Logged
alTakruri Member Posts: 300 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 20 January 2005 01:26 PM quote: Originally posted by Kem-Au: Could you please expand on this? I'm not familiar with any of it, particularly the excesses of Dhu Nawas. In a nutshell the Arabian population of the 6th century were mostly either traditional, Jewish, or Christian. Dhu Nuwas was a Yemini who converted to Judaism and like many new proselytes was over zealous and persecuted the Christian elements. The Byzantines and the Abyssinian Coptics came to the aid of their Arab coreligionists with the Abyssinians attaining hegemony over the peninsula. At some point in time the Abyssinian Coptics decided to overthrow the site of the Traditionalists at Mecca where the Qa`aba housed their idols. Elephants were the tanks of those days and when an elephant mysteriously failed to obey its mahout it made a great impression on the Arabs who defeated the Abyssinians regaining their sovereignty. IP: Logged

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