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Ancient Egypt and Egyptology Negroid affinities in ancient Greece??? (Page 3)
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Author | Topic: Negroid affinities in ancient Greece??? |
Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 27 December 2004 02:44 PM
quote: Do you really believe that there are only 4 distinct types of northwest African faces? There is something flawed with your theory. I think these are rough generalisations and there is much more variation.
quote: Yes but there is great overlapping in blood groups between populatons. The distribution is mostly individual. E.g a Swede and an Kenyan may share the same blood group.
quote: The modern name is Eburran. The industry was found in a small area near lake Nakuru. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 December 2004).] [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 27 December 2004 02:59 PM
quote: There is no evidence for any relationship between the Eburran culture of Kenya and the Gafsan culture of Tunisia.
quote: I have no agenda but when i would have it will be more reliable than yours that is for sure.
quote: I know there are but they don't have any scientific basis for their claims. IP: Logged |
Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 27 December 2004 03:13 PM
quote: Thought Posts: The Origins Of Afroasiatic "A critical reading of genetic data analysis, specifically those of Y Chromosome phylogeography and TaqI 49a,f haplotypes, supports the hypothesis of populations moving FROM the Horn or Southeastern Sahara NORTHWARD to the Nile Valley, NORTHWEST AFRICA, the Levant, and Aegean. The geography of the M35/215 (or 215/M35) lineage, which is of Horn/East African origin, is largely concordant with the range of Afroasiatic languages." "The same archaeological pattern occurs west of Egypt, where domestic animals and, later, grains were GRADUALLY adopted after 8000 yr B.P. into the established pre-agricultural Capsian culture, present across the northern Sahara since 10,000 yr B.P. From this continuity, it has been argued that the pre-food-production Capsian peoples spoke languages ancestral to the Berber and/or Chadic branches of afroasiatic, placing the porot-Afroasiatic period distinctly before 10,000 yr B.P." IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 27 December 2004 03:14 PM
quote: I am sure we can all continue to rely on Lyin-ix for plagiarisations, backtracking, far fetched claims, vulgarity and lies. In other words...laughs-o-plenty. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 27 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 27 December 2004 03:17 PM
quote: Thought Writes: Please tell us SPECIFICALLY why the term "Black", in and of itself is a scientific "no-no"? IP: Logged |
Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 27 December 2004 03:26 PM
quote: Because race is SOCIAL. Also if a Caucasian race does not exist than a black race does not exist either. Otherwise you're a two trick pony. IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 27 December 2004 03:27 PM
quote: quote: No-no is a highly technical term Thought, you can look it up in wikipedia.... didn't you know-know that? IP: Logged |
Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 27 December 2004 03:29 PM
quote: Do you have access to the full study? IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 27 December 2004 03:40 PM
quote:
quote:Black is a phenotypical feature which like 'blonde', or prognathous, or aqualine, or mesomorphic, or diminuative....exists, regardless of what one thinks about race. You confuse all things: craniometry and phrenology; race and racism; Capsian and Caucasian; Black and race. quote:If A ! = C then therefore B! = C. Broken logic. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 27 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 27 December 2004 03:47 PM
quote: The idea of the stone age whites of NorthWest Africa origins of Berber is shown to be a holdover from pre molecular genetics era anthropology and outdated semito-hamitic linguistics. Modern linguistics and genetics have decimated this notion. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 27 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
S.Mohammad Member Posts: 333 |
posted 27 December 2004 03:47 PM
quote: X4Dumbass, biological affinity, NOT race is whats really being discussed. Racial terms like Black, white, Negroid, and Caucasoid are arbitrary, but biological affinities outweighs all of this. [This message has been edited by S.Mohammad (edited 27 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 27 December 2004 03:53 PM
quote: We had discussed this already. Black is a social and cultural category. I think that only in the USA blacks means predominantly African descended and white means predominantly European descended.
quote: Phrenology is a branch of craniometry and race goes with racism. Everything is true except Capsian and Caucaians.
quote: According to you Caucasian is meaningless and rejected but black African is still valid. Only the white race does not exist. Broken logic. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
S.Mohammad Member Posts: 333 |
posted 27 December 2004 03:58 PM
quote: Caucasian wasn't just used to identify the white race, its also used(erroneously) for North Africans and South Indians along with Middle eastern people. IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 27 December 2004 04:05 PM
quote:That's your jibberish not mine, as I do not speak of black or white races. So...more broken logic from you. As for for the erstwhile caucasianists...they nonsensically speak of 'black caucasians' who are neither That is why the concept of Caucasian is dieing. It is simply, a far fetched notion stretched to the breaking point and now forced to backtrack in the face of overwhelming evidence. It is the hyperdiffusionist Eurocentrists who have overreached with their concept of Caucasian and so rendered the term little more than oxymoron, that continues on today more out of zombie/inertia....much like you are in this thread. And that is why your prior argument about the caucasian caveman origins of Berber was such a fallacious disaster, as S. Mohammad's parent post succenctly shows, and you cannot dispute in the least...for all your ill informed ranting. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 27 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 27 December 2004 04:06 PM
quote: In the book you posted the author makes the same mistake. He is trying to divide northwestern Africans according to 4 facial types (Type A, Type B, Type C and Type D). Also why do you think the book was called Stone Age races of Northwest Africa This is exactly what the concept of biological racial taxonomy is all about: generalization. Basically there could be 10,000 (just throwing a number) recognisable northwest African faces but the author chose only four for his own purpose [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 27 December 2004 04:14 PM
quote: All clustering is based ultimately on generalisation. You supported the notion of clustering as long as you thought you could cluster NorthWest Africans with Europeans; now when the results expose the fallacious nature of your preferred caucasoid delusions....you reject the methodology; classic example of bias. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 27 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 27 December 2004 04:23 PM
quote:Truth. And Polynesian, and Native Australian, and Chinese, and Native American and Zulu, and.... IP: Logged |
Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 27 December 2004 04:27 PM
quote: The clustering of populations by geography is supported in molecular genetics but the human genome project analysing thousands of DNA polymorphisms found out that the biological variations are 85-90% individual.
quote: What preferred caucasoid delusions are you talking about? You are the kind who sees the world in terms of black and white. I think it's quite sad actually. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 27 December 2004 04:32 PM
quote: Caucasian means white race. I believe the term should have referred to Europeans and Anatolians for all its purposes. IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 27 December 2004 04:35 PM
quote:As always you miss the point. The clusters and clines are susceptible to the choices made in terms of populations sampled, and geographic conception. This is true whether analyzing phenotype or genotype. No I don't expect you to comprehend and would in fact be shocked if you did.
quote:Keep backtracking...watch out for that cliff behind you. IP: Logged |
Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 27 December 2004 04:36 PM
quote: No the term Caucasoid (white) was used for Europe (first place; except the Finns and Laps), the Middle East and the predominant part of North Africa. The rest were not considered Caucasoid. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 27 December 2004 04:44 PM
quote: Thought Writes: Yes, but not in electronic format. Please refer to the seperate thread I have created for this Letter and Response. Thanks. IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 27 December 2004 04:44 PM
quote:In fact, yes they were and by some of the most prominent [wst] anthropologists I might add. And no, I won't supply you with more information. Your tactic of begging by way of belligerent ignorance has limited charms as far as i'm concerned. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 27 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 27 December 2004 04:48 PM
{Also if a Caucasian race does not exist than a black race does not exist either. Otherwise you're a two trick pony.} Thought Writes: I have never stated that the terms Black OR White equate with a racial paradigm. Where is this coming from? {I think that only in the USA blacks means predominantly African descended and white means predominantly European descended.} Thought Writes: If you recognize the fact that Americans use the term Black as an equivalent to indigenous African what are really challenging? Are you saying there is no such thing as indigenous African? IP: Logged |
Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 27 December 2004 04:49 PM
quote: Thought Writes: Why do you believe the term should have referred to Europeans and Anatolians for all its purposes? IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 27 December 2004 04:52 PM
quote: Projection. It is EXACTLY what Lyin-ix does. So he assumes that everyone else's discourse is a mirror image of his own. IP: Logged |
Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 27 December 2004 05:13 PM
quote: According to the American definitions indigenous African means black and indigenous European means white. But i don't care about the American definitions. Each nation or culture have their own. IP: Logged |
Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 27 December 2004 05:17 PM
quote: Because geographically they are relatively close to eachother. If race had any use at all in the biological sciences is to distinguish between geographic groups of people. IP: Logged |
Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 27 December 2004 05:32 PM
{According to the American definitions indigenous African means black and indigenous European means white. But i don't care about the American definitions. Each nation or culture have their own.} Thought Writes: Ok, but your point was that “Black” was somehow a racial term. Please provide evidence to support these two seemingly contradictory positions? IP: Logged |
Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 27 December 2004 05:34 PM
quote: Thought Writes: How would geography isolate enlighten us on the lineages and origins of living and ancient Europeans? IP: Logged |
alTakruri Junior Member Posts: |
posted 27 December 2004 06:27 PM
quote:
In a broadside, not under discussion, Briggs does us the
[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 27 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 28 December 2004 12:33 PM
quote: My point was that if black is a social pile for indigenous African than white is indigenous European. IP: Logged |
Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 28 December 2004 12:48 PM
quote: Thought Writes: Ok? IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 29 December 2004 10:01 AM
From January National Geographic: Berbers live throughout North Africa, but nowhere has denial of their identity been more systematic than in Morocco, ethnically the most Berber of the regions countries. Although 60 percent of the its population claim Berber descent and nearly 40 percent speak 1 of 3 Berber languages, Morocco's constitution delcares the country part of "Arab" North Africa, and makes no mention of the Berber. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 29 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
alTakruri Junior Member Posts: |
posted 29 December 2004 11:34 AM
quote:
Whats interesting is I find elements among the "Arab" camp who IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 29 December 2004 11:44 AM
Indeed the Imazighen struggle for self determination, which requires self identity as a prerequisite,is in some ways at a more primative and therefore confused stage than in inner Africa. If they can let go of outdated European conceptions of their identity and embrace the reality of distinct and related 'Africaness', they may discover a more beautiful and powerful concept of self awareness than the dubious honorary 'Europoid' identity given them by the west. IP: Logged |
shereens Junior Member Posts: 4 |
posted 11 January 2005 12:02 AM
hi, there, and happy belated new year! ok, so i've actually been following this thread--all 3 pages (mostly)--and i have a question to ask you all. this may not seem important to you, depending on where you live, but it is actually an issue i need to deal with. well, i don't need to deal w/it--i already have--but i fear that there are otehrs around me who have yet to deal w/it and i would like to know what your perceptions are based on your knowledge on this topic: as a modern-day egyptian, would i be considered "african-american" or of african origin? i already have an idea from some around me, and based on my very limited knowledge, i get the impression that studies on modern-day egyptians shows that they are closely related to ancient egyptians; but was wondering what you all thought about it. [[me personally? i have come to the conclusion--and i accept it w/o hesitation--that i am of african descent/african origin; i have no qualms w/this, but i just don't "look" the part. my sister looks more mulatto, but i'm wondering about me.]] thanx!! in advance. IP: Logged |
supercar Junior Member Posts: |
posted 11 January 2005 12:10 AM
quote:
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alTakruri Junior Member Posts: |
posted 11 January 2005 12:13 AM
I think African American describes those whose ancestors experienced the middle passage. Other Africans who migrated to the USA of their own free will IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 3309 |
posted 11 January 2005 12:15 AM
Shereens, the following essay by Frank J. Yurco might answer your question. See the following:
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ausar Moderator Posts: 3309 |
posted 11 January 2005 12:17 AM
quote:
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shereens Junior Member Posts: 4 |
posted 11 January 2005 04:26 PM
#1. i've been wearing a headscarf for a few years now, so you can no longer see my kinky, curly hair. however, i'm quite fair-skinned. in the past, i wondered if i had greek in me. my mother--a staunch egyptian nationalist--has been mistaken for being southern french, italian, and spanish. my sister looks mulatto, as does a cousin of mine. (i've thought that my father's side of the family is more indigenous egyptian.) #2. i guess after writing my post, i realize my question is probably more political than not. this issue means nothing to me, really, except when it comes to checking that minority box and if i'm eligible for certain programs. in the u.s., there is the "one-drop rule": if a person has one drop of negro/african in them, then they are considered black. there are folks who are half black/half white, but do not look african who are still considered african-american. others have two very black african parents, but b/c somewhere up the line they had one white ancestor, they then happen to exhibit the european features very much; yet they are black/african-american. i know for a fact that other black africans consider me to be african-american as well. yes, it's true that u.s. society is trying to level the playing field for those africans who were viciously discriminated against institutionally; however, even modern-day africans who migrate freely to the u.s. are still considered "african-american". there are no separate nationalities listed, unless you are talking about far east asians (then that group gets broken down further into vietnamese, filipino, etc). even modern-day latinos/hispanics, no matter from what social class, who travel from south america or central america to the u.s. are eligible as "latinos/hispanics". that is my real question... ultimately, i have always considered myself to be a "mutt", and proud of it (i do get the sense, though, that arabic-speaking middle-easterners have a more difficult time thinking of egypt as african...) --s-- IP: Logged |
Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 11 January 2005 08:08 PM
{ my sister looks mulatto, as does a cousin of mine} Thought Writes: How does a mulatto look? {in the u.s., there is the "one-drop rule"} Thought Writes: A rule is a law. All laws have some authority behind them. Who enforces the so-called “One-Drop Law”? And if you say SOCIETY please tell us specifically HOW society enforces this law? {if a person has one drop of negro/african in them} Thought Writes: How does one have a drop of Negro in them? And aren’t all human genes subsets of African genes anyway? {there are folks who are half black/half white, but do not look African} Thought Writes: My understanding of the principles of physics is that two things can’t exist at the same place, at the same time, without one thing being dominant and the other thing recessive. Furthermore how would you know that these folks are actually HALF Black and HALF white? How does the TYPICAL African LOOK? {i have always considered myself to be a "mutt”} Isn’t the term “mutt” short for Muttonhead, which is a dog? African HUMANS have a much nobler heritage! IP: Logged |
YuhiVII Member Posts: 43 |
posted 11 January 2005 08:55 PM
quote: mutt (DOG) mongrel (DOG) mutt (PERSON) Either way Shereen, I don't think you really mean to call yourself a "mutt". However I do understand that you are trying to explain your mixed ancestry and how you fit into the US system (also Western system) of racial classification. I would imagine this is a problem for many modern Egyptians as well as some other folks of mixed racial ancestry. Having met a few (modern day Egyptians)I couldn't say for sure which box they should check!At the end of the day I believe the decision is a personal one. IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 11 January 2005 09:00 PM
quote: So much harm has been done effecting the way African people see themselves thru the eyes and mindset of others, who often have had ill intent towards us. That's one of the reasons that there is much value in studying the ancient African cultures Nile Valley and other(s). History is especially important to African people. IP: Logged |
Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 11 January 2005 09:23 PM
{I would imagine this is a problem for many modern Egyptians as well as some other folks of mixed racial ancestry. Having met a few (modern day Egyptians)I couldn't say for sure which box they should check!At the end of the day I believe the decision is a personal one.} Sight Writes: I to agree that how one chooses to classify ones self is indeed personal. But in keeping with the topic of this forum, which is Ancient Egypt, one has to look at the issue within the context of Egyptology and hence biological anthropology. Within the realm of science and biological anthropology almost ALL humans on earth are “mixed”. So when we study the modern Egyptian population as a tool to ascertain the origins of Ancient Egyptians we should study these origins NOT within the framework of a absolutist paradigm, but within a more careful and fluid context. The question is really a matter of PRIMARY origins, not simply admixture. IP: Logged |
YuhiVII Member Posts: 43 |
posted 11 January 2005 11:02 PM
quote: To reiterate my point and in keeping with the topic of this forum "Ancient Egypt", most people I think can establish that it was an African civilization; I personally accept that. However Shereen's question poses a dilemma which is faced by modern day Egyptians (some of different "PRIMARY origins"). Indeed I see what you mean by the "absolutist paradigm" but how do we practically establish somebody's "PRIMARY origin" in a country with a history like modern day Egypt? By phenotype? Or DNA tests perhaps? For example, if my DNA says am 1/2 African, 1/4 Greek and 1/4 Jewish, of these 3 which is PRIMARY? Do I pick that which is more predominant (whether or not I look typical of one of the above peoples or even feel connected to them culturally i.e "fit in")?I can understand the dilemma. No wonder we have some new categories like "Cablinasian" apparently. Maybe that's the way to go, break the paradigm! IP: Logged |
Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 11 January 2005 11:05 PM
quote: Thought Writes: Troller! IP: Logged |
efe_adodo Junior Member Posts: 14 |
posted 11 January 2005 11:15 PM
quote: lol that doesn't mean darn thing, it doesn't matter what you are classified as in the U.S. People will look at Egyptians as an Arabs thats all.
quote: Actually I have to inform you that their are many African-Americans lighter than their Egyptian counterparts. What I find strange about your above statement is that you desperately try to connect yourself with the "white" people (if I may say that). In the U.S no white person would ever see themselves as equals with Egyptians or anybody else. IP: Logged |
efe_adodo Junior Member Posts: 14 |
posted 11 January 2005 11:19 PM
quote: IP: Logged |
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