posted 12 December 2004 02:45 PM            

[......Thus,the gender distinctionencoded for human figures was
transferred at times to the divie world. The symbolisminherant in the
skin colors used for some deities and royal figures sugest that the
colors given to human skin---although initiallyseeming to be
naturalistic -----might also be symbolic. Male and female skin colors
were probabaly not uniform among the entire population of Egypt,with
pigmentation being darker in the south[closer to sub-sahara Africans]
and lighter in the north[closer to Mediterranean Near Easteners] A
woman from the south would probabaly have had darker skin than a man
from the North. Thus,the colorations used for skin tones in the art
must have been schematic [or symbolic] rather than realistic;the
clear gender distinction encoded in that scheme may have been based
on elite ideals relating to male and female roles,in which women's
responsibilities kept them indoors,so that they spent less time in
the sun than men.Nevertheless, the signifcance of the two colors may
be even deeper,making some as yet unknown but fundamental difference
between men and women in Egyptian worldview............]

The Ancient God Speak by Donald Redford

A Guide to Egyptian Religion

Page 57-61 Color Symbolism

posted 12 December 2004 04:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Within the scheme of Egyptian/non-Egyptian skin
color,black was not desirable for ordinary humans ,because it marked
out figures as foreign ,as enemies of Egypt,and ultimatley as
represenatives of chaos;black thereby contrasted with its positive
meaning elsewhere. This example helps demostrate the importance of
context for reading color symbolism.........]

---

Interesting points indeed.

Question, in the supposed race chart (for lack of a better word/phrase) that was found on the tomb of Ramsese the II, what did the colors or representations mean??

How have scholars interpreted this chart?? Are there contrasting points of views on what those color representations meant, or do most (scholars) conclude the same thing??

Thanks

posted 12 December 2004 07:16 PM            

This is the text where in the mdw ntr above
the head of Heru the Kmtyw & Nhsw are lumped
together as KM.t.nwt while the Tmhw & Aamw
are dshr.t.nwt a polity not DSHr.t.x3st a
piece of land.

In examining the painting I quickly discovered
that only a select handful of scholars truly
realize what the painting represents in its
full context.

quote:

---

Originally posted by anacalypsis:
Interesting points indeed.

Question, in the supposed race chart (for lack of a better word/phrase) that was found on the tomb of Ramsese the II, what did the colors or representations mean??

How have scholars interpreted this chart?? Are there contrasting points of views on what those color representations meant, or do most (scholars) conclude the same thing??

Thanks

---

posted 12 December 2004 07:53 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
This is what Anacalypsis is referring to
a vignette from the Book of Gates the Gate of Teka Hra chapter.

This is the text where in the mdw ntr above
the head of Heru the Kmtyw & Nhsw are lumped
together as KM.t.nwt while the Tmhw & Aamw
are dshr.t.nwt a polity not DSHr.t.x3st a
piece of land.

In examining the painting I quickly discovered
that only a select handful of scholars truly
realize what the painting represents in its
full context.

---

Actually I was refering to this one.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I thought this picture was found in the tomb of Ramsese II?? My apologies for the confusion.

posted 12 December 2004 09:05 PM            

I have seen this scene from tombs
KV 8 Merenptah
KV11 Ramses III
KV15 Seti II
KV17 Seti I.

The one youre referencing is the controversial
one from the tomb of Ramses III where the
RT RMT and the NHHSW are quite identical
and the figures wearing leather cloaks and a
growth of Libyan locks are labeled AAMW while
the figures dressed in Asiatic woven wraps
are labeled TMHHW.

posted 12 December 2004 09:53 PM            

quote:

---

This is the text where in the mdw ntr above
the head of Heru the Kmtyw & Nhsw are lumped
together as KM.t.nwt while the Tmhw & Aamw
are dshr.t.nwt a polity not DSHr.t.x3st a
piece of land.
In examining the painting I quickly discovered
that only a select handful of scholars truly
realize what the painting represents in its
full context.

---

posted 13 December 2004 12:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOTE]This is the text where in the mdw ntr above
the head of Heru the Kmtyw & Nhsw are lumped
together as KM.t.nwt while the Tmhw & Aamw
are dshr.t.nwt a polity not DSHr.t.x3st a
piece of land.
In examining the painting I quickly discovered
that only a select handful of scholars truly
realize what the painting represents in its
full context.

---

[/QUOTE]

OK I'll give it a go. What exactly do you want more of?

posted 13 December 2004 03:05 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
OK I'll give it a go. What exactly do you want more of?

---

posted 13 December 2004 07:39 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
You state that most scholars are not grasping the full meaning of the book of Gates iconography. What is it that they are missing, and how and why? Remember many people reading this have no idea of what the book of Gates, Heru, Seth, etc.. are.

---

Well some view vignette 30 in the Gate of Teka Hra of the Book of Gates

as a table of nations -- terminology borrowed from the description of Genesis
chapter 10 -- when it hardly is a picturing of all the different nations known to
19th Dynasty Egypt. In fact to compare it to Genesis 10 it would only be the
four sons of Hham: Kush, Missrayim, Fut, and Kena`an.

Others see it as the four races of man known to the AE. The problem with
that is race science was unknown to the author of the text or the artist of the
painting. At that time there were only two broad colour groupings known
anywhere in the ancient world, dark and light. And whats more important
to the ancients was the ethnicity or nationality. Belonging to a colour group
didn't automatically imply kinship relations among all the ethnies sharing
similar colour.

Another view, of those who havent seen the vignette as a whole but seen
only sections of one group, is that it portrays immigrants or mercenaries
or such. Actually everyone depicted is dead and in the Dwat or underworld.
And on top of that, they are freshly dead today so to speak since the Book
of Gates chapter by chapter is a record of the Suns travel after sunset and
before sunrise.

I'll leave it to you or others to explain what the Book of Gates is but I will say
that the scene is showing peoples under Re who are eligible for Osirian
resurrection. As such, one people known to the AE are intentinally left out.
They being the Hua Nebu i.e. the northern people of the Aegean.

There's little left to free interpretation or other than an understanding that
real people complexions are shown because the painting was only made
for one reason, to be an illustration of a text. The text that it illustrates is right
above the head of Heru and four groups of peoples. In each of the tombs
where the vignette appears the skin tones may vary some from tomb to
tomb but are still within the general range of colour of the ethnic group.

posted 13 December 2004 09:56 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by anacalypsis:
Interesting points indeed.

Question, in the supposed race chart (for lack of a better word/phrase) that was found on the tomb of Ramsese the II, what did the colors or representations mean??

How have scholars interpreted this chart?? Are there contrasting points of views on what those color representations meant, or do most (scholars) conclude the same thing??

Thanks

---

Ausar, or anyone else who wants to try, is there an answer to my question stated earlier about the race chart found in Ramsese III tomb???

posted 14 December 2004 09:18 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by anacalypsis:
Ausar, or anyone else who wants to try, is there an answer to my question stated earlier about the race chart found in Ramsese III tomb???

Thanks

---

posted 14 December 2004 10:36 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by anacalypsis:
Ausar, or anyone else who wants to try, is there an answer to my question stated earlier about the race chart found in Ramsese III tomb???

Question, in the supposed race chart (for lack of a better word/phrase) that was found on the tomb of Ramsese the II, what did the colors or representations mean??

How have scholars interpreted this chart?? Are there contrasting points of views on what those color representations meant, or do most (scholars) conclude the same thing??

Any takers on this?

---

Help me out. What did I miss? I tried to answer by showing

1. its not a chart of races
   
2. the skin tones are natural not symbolic.
   
3. examples of erroneous interpretations

The painting from Ramses III tomb in Lepsius' Denkmaler plate 48

is only a condensation of what's actually on the wall of the tomb.

What's actually on the tomb wall is another rendition of vignette 30 in
the Gate of Teka Hra of the Book of Gates. All the kings in the span
of time between Horemheb and Ramses VI have the complete text
of the Book of Gates and illustrartions to go with it. It was a vital sacred
text for the departed, a guide for what to expect in Amenti, the world of
the afterlife. This one particular vignette is a register of the dead meant
to portray representatives of easterners (any of their nations), Nile Valley
folk (up and down river), and westerners (any of their tribes).

The scene depicts the sun in the netherworld in the 5th hour after sunset with Heru
addressing those who died the previous day. He verbally distinguishes them as
the blacks (Nile Valley folk, i.e., Egyptians and Nehesis) under his protection,
and the reds (folk dwelling east or west of the Nile) under Sekhet's protection.

To understand this one needs to examine a copy of the full vignette,
both the text and the art as is available in Lepsius' Denkmaler plate 136.

Then to understand it in context, one needs to read the rest of the Gate
of Teka Hra of which these paintings are only one small part.

Its also important to know that in comparison to the other paintings of
the exact same scene in the tombs of other pharaohs, the one in the
tomb of Ramses III is controversial in its ethnic labeling in that those
clothed and groomed as Asiatics and Libyans have swapped their
normal place as dictated by the text. In addition to that, the colour
and clothes of the Egyptians and Nehesis do not serve to make
any noticeable difference between them unlike their presentations
in the other last of 18th through middle of the 20th dynasty renditions
of this vignette. This is why the Seti I (LD pl 136) version is the model.

posted 16 December 2004 09:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

Help me out. What did I miss? I tried to answer by showing

1. its not a chart of races
   
2. the skin tones are natural not symbolic.
   
3. examples of erroneous interpretations

The painting from Ramses III tomb in Lepsius' Denkmaler plate 48

is only a condensation of what's actually on the wall of the tomb.

What's actually on the tomb wall is another rendition of vignette 30 in
the Gate of Teka Hra of the Book of Gates. All the kings in the span
of time between Horemheb and Ramses VI have the complete text
of the Book of Gates and illustrartions to go with it. It was a vital sacred
text for the departed, a guide for what to expect in Amenti, the world of
the afterlife. This one particular vignette is a register of the dead meant
to portray representatives of easterners (any of their nations), Nile Valley
folk (up and down river), and westerners (any of their tribes).

The scene depicts the sun in the netherworld in the 5th hour after sunset with Heru
addressing those who died the previous day. He verbally distinguishes them as
the blacks (Nile Valley folk, i.e., Egyptians and Nehesis) under his protection,
and the reds (folk dwelling east or west of the Nile) under Sekhet's protection.

To understand this one needs to examine a copy of the full vignette,
both the text and the art as is available in Lepsius' Denkmaler plate 136.

Then to understand it in context, one needs to read the rest of the Gate
of Teka Hra of which these paintings are only one small part.

Its also important to know that in comparison to the other paintings of
the exact same scene in the tombs of other pharaohs, the one in the
tomb of Ramses III is controversial in its ethnic labeling in that those
clothed and groomed as Asiatics and Libyans have swapped their
normal place as dictated by the text. In addition to that, the colour
and clothes of the Egyptians and Nehesis do not serve to make
any noticeable difference between them unlike their presentations
in the other last of 18th through middle of the 20th dynasty renditions
of this vignette. This is why the Seti I (LD pl 136) version is the model.

[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 14 December 2004).]

---

Sorry alTakruri, I wasn't sure if the initial response was for me or for the question Rasol asked. The picture that you posted was far more complex...in that there was a lot going on.. But I read through your posts again and i am trying to understand what you mean.. I understand though...that you're saying that the picture from the Tomb of RamseseIII is not a race chart, but at the same time was an accurate depiction of colors for the individuals represented.

Still trying to understand the picture that you posted.

posted 17 December 2004 01:17 AM            

There are two aspects to the controveries surrounding the Table of Peoples shown in these scenes. It's important to remember that there are several such scenes and none are exactly alike.

* the 1st has to do with the way the people are depicted. In most of the scenes the Nehasu are shown be darker than the RmT, but in one of the scenes they are both shown to be the same color. The reproductions of the scenes are accurate as far as capturing the colors as shown on the tombs. The Lepsius scene is a condensation in that it shows one of each example instead of four of each. This is done in order to illustrated the text and labeling associated with each individual. Some scholars claimed for a time, that this scene did not exist or that the 'pitch black' figure labeled rmt kmt was actually labeled 'nehasu' on the tomb. This is not the case. Lepsius reproduction is accurate.

* The Book of Gates associated with some of the pictures gives a mythological account of the different ethnic groups known to the Kemetians. It refers to the Kemet[rome] and Nehasu as children of Horus (son of Osirus and Isis); while the Tamehu and Namehu are children of Sekth.

Here is a good look at one aspect of the controversy from Professor Manu Ampim: http://manuampim.com/ramesesIII.htm

posted 17 December 2004 01:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Within the scheme of Egyptian/non-Egyptian skin
color,black was not desirable for ordinary humans ,because it marked
out figures as foreign ,as enemies of Egypt,and ultimatley as
represenatives of chaos;black thereby contrasted with its positive
meaning elsewhere. This example helps demostrate the importance of
context for reading color symbolism.........]

---

I dunno why Ausar posted this "stuff"...
But it gives me an excellant opportunity to send you to my site: http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/coco_hues.html

http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/black_lang.html

Also, look at the mural from the tomb of Rameses III, and without recourse to anyone else's opinion, what do you make of it? That's important...

posted 17 December 2004 04:08 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Within the scheme of Egyptian/non-Egyptian skin
color,black was not desirable for ordinary humans ,because it marked
out figures as foreign ,as enemies of Egypt,and ultimatley as
represenatives of chaos;black thereby contrasted with its positive
meaning elsewhere. This example helps demostrate the importance of
context for reading color symbolism.........]

---

I dunno why Ausar posted this "stuff"...
But it gives me an excellant opportunity to send you to my site: http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/coco_hues.html

http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/black_lang.html
[/quote]

I repeat: when the [wst] scholars confront kemetic color dialectics they try as hard as they can to force fit them back into the [wst] color dialectic.

posted 19 January 2005 10:27 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
That the Egyptian women shared their skin color with
some foreign men scarcely mattered,since the Egyptian male is primary
and formed the reference point in these two color scemes---
contrasting in one with non-Egyptian males and in the other with
Egyptian females. Within the scheme of Egyptian/non-Egyptian skin
color,black was not desirable for ordinary humans ,because it marked
out figures as foreign ,as enemies of Egypt,and ultimatley as
represenatives of chaos;black thereby contrasted with its positive
meaning elsewhere.

---

Ausar, I noticed since starting this topic, you've been pretty silent on the matter, but do you buy the above statement?

I find these two statements strange:

1. "since the Egyptian male is primary
and formed the reference point in these two color scemes"

How does he know these? Does he elaborate?

2. "black was not desirable for ordinary humans ,because it marked
out figures as foreign ,as enemies of Egypt,and ultimatley as
represenatives of chaos"

posted 19 January 2005 11:45 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fromashes_rise:

i thought black meant god or dead and red meant chaos but im not entirely sure.

---

Wally's take on Kemetic color symbolism:

Egyptian Skin Tones - Symbolic & Conventional

Egyptian male (dark)
Egyptian brown skin.....masculine, strong Black skin.....................powerful, reborn
White skin....................recently deceased

Old Egyptian male (light)
Yellow skin....................weak, frail

Egyptian female (light) Yellow skin....................feminine, weak

Egyptian brown skin.....equal of men (Amarna period)

Black skin.....................powerful, reborn

Egyptian gods
Gold skin......................flesh of the gods

Blue skin......................the cosmic waters, the firmament

Green skin...................life (i.e., plants)