The Siwa - EgyptSearch Forums

EgyptSearch Forums

Ancient Egypt and Egyptology

The Siwa (Page 1)

profile | register | preferences | faq | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
This topic is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Author	Topic: The Siwa
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 26 November 2004 02:23 PM Are the Egyptian Siwa of Sudanic background? The local inhabitants are Siwans, a mingling of bedouin and Sudanese, whose culture and customs are unique. http://www.abercrombiekent.com.au/pages/woe/egypt/eg_toe.htm Also Prehistoric desert town found in Western Sahara [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 26 November 2004).] IP: Logged
*neogeo** Member Posts: 847 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 26 November 2004 03:16 PM quote: Originally posted by Orionix: Are the Egyptian Siwa of Sudanic background? No. They're mainly Berbers and have been isolated from foriegnors for centuries. IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 26 November 2004 03:40 PM quote: Originally posted by neogeo: No. They're mainly Berbers and have been isolated from foriegnors for centuries.* I know they are Berbers but their origin is Sudanic. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 3921 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 26 November 2004 03:41 PM Better question. ProtoBerber originates in the Eastern Sudan. Is Berber "Sudanic"? IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 26 November 2004 03:45 PM Well Berbers are diverse morphologically. Their origin is agreed to be Capsian. Through the centuries Berbers have mixed with so many other ethnic groups, notably the Arabs, that they are now identified usually on a linguistic rather than a racial basis. IP: Logged
*neogeo** Member Posts: 847 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 26 November 2004 03:48 PM quote: Originally posted by Orionix: I know they are Berbers but their origin is Sudanic. If by "Sudanic" you mean they're related to the people of Western Sudan, I would say yes but if you mean modern-day Sudan I say no. They most likely originate from the pre-historic populations that inhabited the Sahara region. IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 26 November 2004 04:13 PM quote: Originally posted by neo*geo: If by "Sudanic" you mean they're related to the people of Western Sudan, I would say yes but if you mean modern-day Sudan I say no. They most likely originate from the pre-historic populations that inhabited the Sahara region. Although the Sahara is a broad region, i believe it was somewhere in modern southern Libya. Also languages are not inherited, they are learned. IP: Logged
*neogeo** Member Posts: 847 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 26 November 2004 04:19 PM quote: Originally posted by Orionix: Well Berbers are diverse morphologically. Their origin is agreed to be Capsian. Through the centuries Berbers have mixed with so many other ethnic groups, notably the Arabs, that they are now identified usually on a linguistic rather than a racial basis. Physically, the Siwa Berbers look like they could be related to the Toureges and the Haratin. Siwa Tourege Haratin [This message has been edited by neo*geo (edited 26 November 2004).] IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 1835 Registered: May 2004	posted 26 November 2004 05:16 PM quote: Originally posted by Orionix: Well Berbers are diverse morphologically. Their origin is agreed to be Capsian. Thought Writes: The genetic evidence CLEARLY links the Berbers to the Horn of Africa/Sudanese area during the mesolithic period. No one has "agreed" that their origin is "Capsian". IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 3921 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 26 November 2004 05:34 PM quote: Through the centuries Berbers have mixed with so many other ethnic groups, notably the Arabs, that they are now identified usually on a linguistic rather than a racial basis. ?? But of course, that is the point. Berber was NEVER a race. The word itself is Greek in origin and simply derived from Barbarian, which originally applied to Germanic Northern Europeans, and means roughly...savage. The language group originates in East Africa at/near the Sudan, south of Nubia, so your juxtaposition of "Berber and Sudanic" seems to be somewhat of a non-sequitor. IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 26 November 2004 05:49 PM quote: Originally posted by rasol: But of course, that is the point. Berber was NEVER a race. The word itself is Greek in origin and simply derived from Barbarian, which originally applied to Germanic Northern Europeans, and means roughly...savage. The language group originates in East Africa at/near the Sudan, south of Nubia, so your juxtaposition of "Berber and Sudanic" seems to be somewhat of a non-sequitor. Excatly. They are a physically diverse ethnic group. Also the Afro-Asiatic super-language family spread out of Africa (the region is now a desert) some 10,000 years ago and then back. Also race is a biologically meaningless concept. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8122-1331319,00.html IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 26 November 2004 05:50 PM quote: Originally posted by Thought2: Thought Writes: The genetic evidence CLEARLY links the Berbers to the Horn of Africa/Sudanese area during the mesolithic period. No one has "agreed" that their origin is "Capsian". Well experts say they are Capsians or descended from the Capsian culture. IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 1835 Registered: May 2004	posted 26 November 2004 05:55 PM quote: Originally posted by Orionix: Well experts say they are Capsians or descended from the Capsian culture. Thought Writes: What experts? Sources please? Is this a CURRENT source that incorporates MODERN ideas based upon multidisciplinary reasearch or some out of date material? IP: Logged
*neogeo** Member Posts: 847 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 26 November 2004 05:56 PM quote: Originally posted by Orionix: Well experts say they are Capsians or descended from the Capsian culture. This is the first I've heard of that. The linguistic and genetic evidence dont seem to support the idea... IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 26 November 2004 06:05 PM quote: Thought Writes: What experts? Sources please? Is this a CURRENT source that incorporates MODERN ideas based upon multidisciplinary reasearch or some out of date material? The historian Christopher Eret says they are descended from the Capsian culture. Though the heritage of the Imazighen is not completely clear. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 26 November 2004).] IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 26 November 2004 06:10 PM quote: Originally posted by neogeo: This is the first I've heard of that. The linguistic and genetic evidence dont seem to support the idea...* What linguistic and genetic evidence? Experts agrees that the Amazigh are native to North Africa. IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 1835 Registered: May 2004	posted 26 November 2004 06:31 PM {The historian Christopher Eret says they are descended from the Capsian culture.} Sight Writes: Ehret traces ALL Afro-Asiatic speakers back to the Horn of Africa/Sudanese region during the early Holocene. REFERENCE: "Egypt In Africa" Celenko 1996 {Though the heritage of the Imazighen is not completely clear.} Thought Writes: Genetics has CLEARLY traced the Imazighen male lineages back to the early Holocene Horn/Sudanese area and the female lineages mainly to Eurasia. IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 1835 Registered: May 2004	posted 26 November 2004 06:54 PM {The historian Christopher Eret says they are descended from the Capsian culture.} Sight Writes: Ehret traces ALL Afro-Asiatic speakers back to the Horn of Africa/Sudanese region during the early Holocene. REFERENCE: "Egypt In Africa" Celenko 1996 {Though the heritage of the Imazighen is not completely clear.} Thought Writes: Genetics has CLEARLY traced the Imazighen male lineages back to the early Holocene Horn/Sudanese area and the female lineages mainly to Eurasia. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 3921 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 26 November 2004 07:02 PM quote: Excatly. They are a physically diverse ethnic group. No. Berber is a linguistic group. Berbers are ethnically diverse. quote: Also the Afro-Asiatic super-language family spread out of Africa. .....spread out of Africa by Africans. And specifically even pre proto semitic is considered by some linguists to have originated in Africa. And that is the only branch of found outside of Africa. As Berber is wholey African, good luck findiing 'linguistic' evidence of a non African origin. quote: biologically race is meaningless Then your question about the Siwa being of "sudanic" background is pointless, other than as a further display of the use of racial euphemisms poorly disguised with non racial disclaimers. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 3921 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 26 November 2004 07:06 PM quote: Originally posted by Thought2: {The historian Christopher Eret says they are descended from the Capsian culture.} Sight Writes: Ehret traces ALL Afro-Asiatic speakers back to the Horn of Africa/Sudanese region during the early Holocene. .....somehow Orionix manages to tune out all information except the little bits and pieces that he wants to hear, and then uses it to justify drawing the 'opposite' conclusion from his own sources. Let the game begin! IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 26 November 2004 07:26 PM I didn't say race i said ethnic group. The Berbers are Capsians and yes they are a physically diverse ethnic group native to North Africa. Somebody posted this earlier on: 1. mtDNA (maternal) sequences, labeled L3E (east African in origin) and U6 (western Asian in origin), were detected at frequencies of 96% in Moroccan Berbers, 82% in Algerian Berbers and 78% in non-Berber Moroccans, compared with only 4% in a Senegalese population. (Passarino et al., Am J Hum Genet, 1998) 2. Also in terms of genetic distance (diversity), North Africans are not necessarily related to Europeans... BACKGROUND: CD4 STR/Alu haplotype diversity, both for its qualitative and quantitative properties, has been widely used in molecular anthropology to clarify the degree of genetic relationships among human populations. AIM: CD4 STR/Alu variation was studied in two West Mediterranean samples, Andalusians from La Alpujarra region on the north side of the Gibraltar Strait and Berbers from the south, to ascertain the pattern of affinities between them. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: Alu and microsatellite alleles were tested in 99 Andalusians from La Alpujarra region (Southeast Spain) and 124 Middle Atlas Berbers (Morocco). RESULTS: Two new combinations of Alu and STR alleles (75(+) and 80(-)) were found in Berbers. The CD4 STR/Alu haplotype distribution in South Spaniards is similar to that of other Europeans, the only special feature is the slight presence of the 90(+) and 130(+) typical Sub-Saharan haplotypes. The Berber sample is characterized by a high number of different haplotypes (18) with intermediate heterozygosity values (0.846) in comparison with other North African groups, and by a high frequency of the 110(-) combination that has been proposed as representative of an ancient Northwest African population. CONCLUSION: A geographical gradient of Sub-Saharan gene contribution has been detected in North Africa. The Middle Atlas Berbers showed an intermediate value in comparison with the high and low values found in Mauritanians and Moroccan Berbers, respectively. The analysis of the CD4 STR/Alu haplotype variation failed to indicate any particular relationship between South Spaniards and North Africans. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15204363 Happy now? IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 3921 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 26 November 2004 08:00 PM The Berbers: North Africa was inhabited by several different communities, each known by a different name. When the Romans first conquered the region, they assigned all these groups the Latin name barbari, the equivalent of the English "barbarian." This name denoted the fact that the North Africans spoke neither Latin nor Greek, the only acceptable languages to the Romans. After 700 years of Roman rule, the Byzantine Empire succeeded Rome and continued to refer to the North Africans as one group. After conquering North Africa, the Arabs also kept the Roman name for the local inhabitants, modifying it to barbar, or Berber. As they began converting to Islam in the years following the Arab conquest, the Berbers acquired a distinct identity, with a cohesive existence as part of the Muslim community. Although distinctions remained between different Berber communities, the unity of the Berbers as a North African people increased. Today, the Berbers are still a diverse population, but the languages they speak are considered dialects of the same language, Berber. Berbers today make up 20 per cent of the population in Algeria, and 40 per cent in Morocco. They also exist in significant numbers throughout the Sahara Desert, and east into southern Tunisia and Libya. Using one term, Berber, to describe several ethnically diverse groups, compares to using the term "Indian" to describe the indigenous populations of North and South America. Neither term provides an accurate description of the people it represents; the moniker simply reflects the initial reaction of those who assigned the name. Berbers were also often called Moors throughout history, from the Greek Mauros, or "inhabitant of Mauritania," a region of North Africa. http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/caliphate/berbers.html The Berber language originates in east Africa. But Berber is still a language group and not really a singular ethnic group. IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 26 November 2004 08:19 PM A Berber is any of the descendants of the pre-Arab inhabitants of North Africa. They speak various languages belonging to the Afro-Asiatic language family. The common parent language presumably existed about the 6th�8th millennium BC and was perhaps located in the present-day Sahara. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 3921 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 26 November 2004 08:47 PM I won't waste time critiquing your personal definition of Berber, because I want you to think about it yourself. Think about all the things that are hopelessly wrong with that definition. Just think about it. IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 26 November 2004 09:02 PM Cheikh Anta Diop wrote that all original early Holocene (c. 10,000-4000 b.c.e.) inhabitants of North Africa were black, and that they alone were responsible for the predynastic culture of Egypt, and for all of the early dynasties. During the Old Kingdom it was thought that small-scale Caucasoid incursions from the Levant lightened the skin tone of the original Egyptians, with subsequent "invasions" from Persia, Greece, and Rome further transforming the physical characteristics of the Egyptians. Needless to say, this in-mixing of foreigners was thought to be linked to the decline of Egypt, with the best of Egyptian ideas being responsible for the grandeur of Greece and subsequent European civilization. However today we know that race has little scientific standing. The concept behind race is meaningless in molecular population genetics. When people argue over who is white and who is black there is no science which can back up their claims. IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 1835 Registered: May 2004	posted 27 November 2004 12:27 AM quote: Originally posted by rasol: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Thought2: [b]{The historian Christopher Eret says they are descended from the Capsian culture.} Sight Writes: Ehret traces ALL Afro-Asiatic speakers back to the Horn of Africa/Sudanese region during the early Holocene. .....somehow Orionix manages to tune out all information except the little bits and pieces that he wants to hear, and then uses it to justify drawing the 'opposite' conclusion from his own sources. Let the game begin! [/B][/QUOTE] Thought Writes: Orionix, you still have not given me your reference for Ehret claiming the Berbers were Capsians. Thanks in advance. IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 1835 Registered: May 2004	posted 27 November 2004 12:39 AM {The Berbers are Capsians and yes they are a physically diverse ethnic group native to North Africa.} Thought Writes: Berber is a language familiy. Capsian is a archaeological group. There is no firm evidence linking the two. {mtDNA (maternal) sequences, labeled L3E (east African in origin) and U6 (western Asian in origin), were detected at frequencies of 96% in Moroccan Berbers, 82% in Algerian Berbers and 78% in non-Berber Moroccans, compared with only 4% in a Senegalese population.} Thought Writes: I found no such reference in said study? http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v62n2/970077/970077.web.pdf IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 1835 Registered: May 2004	posted 27 November 2004 12:41 AM {When people argue over who is white and who is black there is no science which can back up their claims.} Thought Writes: That depends on how one defines Black and White. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 3921 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 27 November 2004 09:34 AM officials time out: quote: Thought Writes: I found no such reference in said study? flagrant foul and unsportsmenlike conduct on Orionix: the quote isn't from the study, it's plagiarised from Stormfront web site. Also from Orionix quote: Cheikh Anta Diop wrote that all original early Holocene (c. 10,000-4000 b.c.e.) inhabitants of North Africa were black technical foul: ineligible reference to Diop which is not an actual quote of him, but rather a cut and paste plagiarisation from the Encarta Africana website. That means you get a free penalty kick Thought. We leave to you to decide what part of Orionix you wish to kick. now, back to the game.... [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 27 November 2004).] IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 27 November 2004 11:33 AM quote: Originally posted by rasol: officials time out: flagrant foul and unsportsmenlike conduct on Orionix: the quote isn't from the study, it's plagiarised from Stormfront web site. How do you know it is from Stormfront? Because it is not taken from Stormfront. It's taken from a study i found out in racial reality. I just corrected it. Now i am starting to think you are part of Stormfront. quote: technical foul: ineligible reference to Diop which is not an actual quote of him, but rather a cut and paste plagiarisation from the Encarta Africana website. That means you get a free penalty kick Thought. We leave to you to decide what part of Orionix you wish to kick. now, back to the game.... Well you shut yourself down now. If you really own encarta you can see what's written: This is not the place to enter into a point-by-point debate on Diop's claims, and those of his numerous intellectual descendants. At their best they do much to redress the anti-African bias inherent in early Egyptology; at their worst they recreate in reverse the oblique racism inherent in the hyperdiffusionistic school of Grafton Elliot-Smith in the 1930s. Modern consensus sees Egypt, from its beginnings, as a multiracial civilization, with African cultural aspects particularly coming from Egypt's Nubian corridor to Africa. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 November 2004).] [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 November 2004).] [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 November 2004).] IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 27 November 2004 11:42 AM quote: Thought writes: Orionix, you still have not given me your reference for Ehret claiming the Berbers were Capsians. Thanks in advance. Check out Wikipedia: "They are generally agreed to descend from the Neolithic Capsian culture, which appeared in North Africa around 10,000-8000 BC. The origins of this culture are unclear; according to the historian Christopher Ehret, the probably came from the African coast of the Red Sea. Some have regarded this culture's population as simply a continuation of the earlier Mesolithic Ibero-Maurusian culture, which appeared about 15,000 BC, while others argue for a population change, the former view has some support from dental evidence." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 1835 Registered: May 2004	posted 27 November 2004 11:44 AM quote: Originally posted by Orionix: The origins of this culture are unclear; according to the historian Christopher Ehret, the probably came from the African coast of the Red Sea. Sight Writes: So how does this relate to your claim of Ehret stating that they came from the Capsian? IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 27 November 2004 11:55 AM quote: Originally posted by Thought2: Sight Writes: So how does this relate to your claim of Ehret stating that they came from the Capsian? No they are probably descended from the Capsian culture, the origin of which is unclear. Also there has been some study done on NW Africans: quote: In the present study we have analyzed 44 Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms in population samples from northwestern (NW) Africa and the Iberian Peninsula, which allowed us to place each chromosome unequivocally in a phylogenetic tree based on >150 polymorphisms. The most striking results are that contemporary NW African and Iberian populations were found to have originated from distinctly different patrilineages and that the Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a strong (although not complete) barrier to gene flow. In NW African populations, an Upper Paleolithic colonization that probably had its origin in eastern Africa contributed 75% of the current gene pool. In comparison, 78% of contemporary Iberian Y chromosomes originated in an Upper Paleolithic expansion from western Asia, along the northern rim of the Mediterranean basin. Smaller contributions to these gene pools (constituting 13% of Y chromosomes in NW Africa and 10% of Y chromosomes in Iberia) came from the Middle East during the Neolithic and, during subsequent gene flow, from Sub-Saharan to NW Africa. Finally, bidirectional gene flow across the Strait of Gibraltar has been detected: the genetic contribution of European Y chromosomes to the NW African gene pool is estimated at 4%, and NW African populations may have contributed 7% of Iberian Y chromosomes. The Islamic rule of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The high-resolution analysis of the Y chromosome allows us to separate successive migratory components and to precisely quantify each historical layer. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 November 2004).] IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 1835 Registered: May 2004	posted 27 November 2004 12:12 PM quote: Originally posted by Orionix: No they are probably descended from the Capsian culture, the origin of which is unclear. Thought Writes: Source/Reference please? IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 27 November 2004 01:07 PM quote: Originally posted by Thought2: Thought Writes: Source/Reference please? Check out Wikipedia... quote: They are generally agreed to descend from the Neolithic Capsian culture, which appeared in North Africa around 10,000-8000 BC. The origins of this culture are unclear; according to the historian Christopher Ehret, the probably came from the African coast of the Red Sea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber quote: Little is known of the origins of the indigenous population of the Maghrib, the Berbers, except that they have always been a composite people. http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n4/002582/002582.html http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v70n6/023739/023739.html The lightest Berbers i've seen are the ones who inhabit the mountainous areas of Morocco and Algeria, the Kabyle, Rif, Tamazight and the Shluh. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 November 2004).] IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 3921 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 27 November 2004 01:22 PM quote: They are generally agreed to descend from the Neolithic Capsian culture, which appeared in North Africa around 10,000-8000 BC. tsk. tsk. Orionix, more cut and paste fraud is last thing you need. The only part of your quote that is attributable to Ehret commenting on the origins of Berber is..... according to the historian Christopher Ehret, they probably came from the African coast of the Red Sea.; which is not in dispute. However, you falsely claimed Ehret as a source for this bogus remark historian Christopher Eret says they are descended from the Capsian culture. He said no such thing, which makes you a liar. Once again demonstrating your complete inability to quote correctly from your own uncredited (ie - STOLEN) sources. But then, why would anyone expect honesty from a thief? ? IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 3921 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 27 November 2004 01:30 PM quote: technical foul: ineligible reference to Diop which is not an actual quote of him, but rather a cut and paste plagiarisation from the Encarta Africana website. quote: Well you shut yourself down now. If you really own encarta Whose claming to own encarta? What was stated, is that you plagiarised from it, which you are now admitting.... From Encarta Africana: This is not the place to enter into a point-by-point debate on Diop's claims, No it's not, and it's not relevant to this thread either, nor is it meant to be, that's why we immediately spotted it as plagarised, because it did not address any comment made in this thread. Additionally you appended your own remarks about race on to this stolen quote, (remarks which by the way, contradict some of the opinions expressed in the encarta article), which you discribe as i just corrected it. No, you stole from them. And then you misquoted them (same was with Christoperh Ehret)....is what you did. next..... [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 27 November 2004).] IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 1835 Registered: May 2004	posted 27 November 2004 01:38 PM Your Original Statement: Well experts say they are Capsians or descended from the Capsian culture. My Original Question: Is this a CURRENT source that incorporates MODERN ideas based upon multidisciplinary research or some out of date material? Your Response: Check out Wikipedia... My Response: I do NOT consider �Wikipedia� to be a peer-reviewed, scientific journal, hence it does NOT incorporates MODERN ideas based upon multidisciplinary research. Give us credible sources when making these sort of outrageous claims! Genetic evidence links North Africans to a Sub-Saharan East African origin during the Early Holocene. The Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) forced European and African populations into several refuges until the Early Holocene. In Europe these refuges were in Spain, Italy and the Balkans. In Africa the main refuges were the Nile and the Lakes of the East African Rift Valley. At the end of the LGM (circa 13,000 KY) a shift in the summer monsoon belt began to spread sub-Saharan flora, fauna and human hunter/gatherers into North Africa. At this time LGM Nile Valley populations in Egypto-Nubia had established an economy based upon the exploitation of river-based resources. The shift in the summer monsoon belt caused the Nile to flood and depleted the natural resources and economy that LGM Egypto-Nubia�s exploited. It is possible that proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers migrating north with the summer monsoon belt shift placed an addition strain on the resources of the Egypto-Nubian region and violence ensued. Possible indications of this violence may be evident at the Qadan Nubia sites. Perhaps increased completion for natural resources caused a branch of these proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers to send a party out of the Nuile valley region and into the Levant, where they were archaeologically known as Mushabians. These Mushabians could have carried the indigenous East African haplotye E3b. The Mushabians may have spread as far north as Syria before merging with the indigenous Paleolithic �Middle Eastern� populations that carried the Haplotype J. Later, this admixed group would have carried Haplogroup E and J into the Balkins as evidenced by the so-called �Negroid Traits� in Early Neolithic Macedonia. Meanwhile, the baseline population of the Nile was of an East African ancestral origin. Some of these Nile Valley inhabitants spread west into the Saharan oasis area by 9500 B.C. Here in isolated pockets the ancestral East African E3b haplotype diversified into the Berber specific E-M81 cluster. In conclusion, the indigenous Berber speakers were descendents of the proto-Afro-Asiatic speaking, E3b carrying East Africans of the Early Holocene. IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 27 November 2004 01:40 PM quote: Originally posted by rasol: tsk. tsk. Orionix, more cut and paste fraud is last thing you need. Lol... what are you going to do if i'm not going to meet your demands? You asked for a source, i gave you a source. Can you cite sources which argue against the Capsian theory? Mustafaa, the guy who wrote the arcitcle in Wikipedia is basically correct. The Amazigh are native to NW Africa and the earliest blade industries of the Maghrib, associated as in Europe with the final supersession of Neanderthaloids by Homo sapiens, are named Ibero-Maurusian, or Oranian (type site, La Mouilla, near Oran in western Algeria), an industry of obscure origin, which seems to have spread along all the coastal areas of the Maghrib and Cyrenaica between about 15,000 and 10,000 BC. Following the Ibero-Maurusian was the Capsian, the origin of which is also obscure. Its most characteristic sites are in the area of the great salt lakes of southern Tunisia, the type site being al-Maqta' (el-Mekta), near Qafsah (Capsa, or Gafsa). IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 27 November 2004 01:45 PM quote: Thought wrote: I do NOT consider �Wikipedia� to be a peer-reviewed, scientific journal, hence it does NOT incorporates MODERN ideas based upon multidisciplinary research. Give us credible sources when making these sort of outrageous claims! The guy who wrote the arcticle about the Berbers is basically correct. I just expanded it with more opinions. quote: Genetic evidence links North Africans to a Sub-Saharan East African origin during the Early Holocene. Please cite the source which you took it from. It sounds like a crackpot source to me. North Africans are a diverse group. I'm talking specifically about the Berbers, the native inhabitants of the Maghrib. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 3921 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 27 November 2004 01:49 PM quote: Originally posted by Thought2: Sight Writes: So how does this relate to your claim of Ehret stating that they came from the Capsian? No they are probably descended from the Capsian culture, the origin of which is unclear. Also there has been some study done on NW Africans: quote: In the present study we have analyzed 44 Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms in population samples from northwestern (NW) Africa and the Iberian Peninsula, which allowed us to place each chromosome unequivocally in a phylogenetic tree based on >150 polymorphisms. The most striking results are that contemporary NW African and Iberian populations were found to have originated from distinctly different patrilineages and that the Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a strong (although not complete) barrier to gene flow. In NW African populations, an Upper Paleolithic colonization that probably had its origin in eastern Africa contributed 75% of the current gene pool. In comparison, 78% of contemporary Iberian Y chromosomes originated in an Upper Paleolithic expansion from western Asia, along the northern rim of the Mediterranean basin. Smaller contributions to these gene pools (constituting 13% of Y chromosomes in NW Africa and 10% of Y chromosomes in Iberia) came from the Middle East during the Neolithic and, during subsequent gene flow, from Sub-Saharan to NW Africa. Finally, bidirectional gene flow across the Strait of Gibraltar has been detected: the genetic contribution of European Y chromosomes to the NW African gene pool is estimated at 4%, and NW African populations may have contributed 7% of Iberian Y chromosomes. The Islamic rule of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The high-resolution analysis of the Y chromosome allows us to separate successive migratory components and to precisely quantify each historical layer. From High-resolution analysis of human Y-chromosome variation shows a sharp discontinuity and limited gene flow between northwestern Africa and the Iberian Peninsula. Bosch E, Calafell F, Comas D, Oefner PJ, Underhill PA, Bertranpetit J. specifically: In NW African populations, an Upper Paleolithic colonization that probably had its origin in eastern Africa contributed 75% of the current gene pool. ...yes and? AS for: different patrilineages and that the Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a strong (although not complete) barrier to gene flow Yes in antiquity, but that does not relate to the history of 'white slavery' in NW Africa in historic times. Not sure, what point you think you are making here but I assume you are trying to contradict: quote: Thought Writes: I was reviwing a few studies and noticed some intersteing patterns among NW Africans TYPICALLY (I realize this is a broad region with variation on the micro level). NW Africans have Y Chromosomes (male lineages) that emerge from Holocene (recent epoch) Sub-Saharan East Africa at a rate of about 75%. About 20% of their male lineages emerge from Holocene Eurasia. Typically about 70% of the mtDNA (female lineages) in NW Africa come from Holocene Eurasia and about about 30% from Sub-Saharan East and West Africa (M1 and L lineages). U6, which is of Upper Paleolithic origin (and hence not associated with modern phena) occurs in pooled NW African groups at about 15%. So in a broad sense one might say that NW Africa contributed male lineages to SW Europe and SW Europe contributed female lineages to NW Africa. In this light, the following article may be of interest: http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040310-115506-8528r.htm A million Europeans enslaved REUTERS NEWS AGENCY An American historian says that more than a million Europeans were enslaved by North African slave traders between 1530 and 1780, a time of vigorous Mediterranean and Atlantic coastal piracy. The number of white European slaves is only a fraction of the trade that brought 10 million to 12 million black African slaves to the Americas over a 400-year period, historian Robert Davis says, but his research shows the slave trade was more widespread than commonly assumed. The impact on Europe's white population was significant. "One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature � that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true," said Mr. Davis, an Ohio State University professor. "Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland." In a new book, "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800," Mr. Davis calculates that between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by pirates called "corsairs" and forced to work in North Africa during that period. The raids were so aggressive that entire Mediterranean seaside towns were abandoned by frightened residents. "Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe. "Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear." The pirates, sailing from such cities as Tunis and Algiers, raided ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children, he says. They were put to work in quarries, in heavy construction and as oarsmen in the pirates' galleys. Mr. Davis calculated his estimates using records that indicate how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed. "It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available And what does this have to do with the Siwa anyway? IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 1835 Registered: May 2004	posted 27 November 2004 01:55 PM quote: Originally posted by Thought2: [B]In Africa the main refuges were the Nile and the Lakes of the East African Rift Valley. At the end of the LGM (circa 13,000 KY) a shift in the summer monsoon belt began to spread sub-Saharan flora, fauna and human hunter/gatherers into North Africa.[B] Thought Writes: It is also important to consider the fact that at the beginning of the LGM the Nile Valley/ East African Rift Valley/Horn Of Africa basin may have had one of the greatest population densities on earth at this time. This may have been do to the fact that Africans in this region had created advanced technologies such microliths that allowed them to be more efficent hunters and fishers. Thought Posts: The Prehistory Of Egypt Beatrix Midant-Reynes 2000 Page 62 and 63 "Tixier (1972) suggests that northern Sudan might have been one of the main centers of differentiation that produced the bladelet industry of the maghreb which is so similar to the final Paleolithic of Upper Egypt." "Given that the Nile Delta is located directly between the Levant and North Africa, it must have played as essential role in the development of icrolith cultures, and some scholars argue that the Mushabian complex in the Sinai might have originated in the Delta." "With a probable center of differentiation in the south and evidence for diffusion in the North, the Nile Valley, between 20,000 and 12,000 BP, was not only part of a major techno-cultral process but one of the driving forces. A major change now took place: the rains had returned in about 14,000 BP, and these were followed by the great early Holocene wet phase from 12,000 BP to 7500 BP. Groups of people were thus eable gradually to reocuppy the zones of the sahel and sahara that had until then been deserted." IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 3921 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 27 November 2004 01:55 PM quote: Lol... what are you going to do if i'm not going to meet your demands? You mean if you don't stop stealing and misquoting? Orionix, you have it all wrong. Apparently you think that you are hurting others by what you are doing, and are amused because we can't stop you. But you are only hurting yourself, by disrespecting yourself with corny combinations of cut & paste and outright lies. And if you think that anyone replying to you does so for anything other than laughs (at your expense), that are also deluding yourself...and no one else. But, I digress. continue.... IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 1835 Registered: May 2004	posted 27 November 2004 02:07 PM quote: Originally posted by Orionix: [QUOTE]Genetic evidence links North Africans to a Sub-Saharan East African origin during the Early Holocene. Please cite the source which you took it from. It sounds like a crackpot source to me. [/B][/QUOTE] Thought Posts: A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA variation In North Africa. Arredi et al 2004 "Thus, although Moroccan Y lineages WERE interpreted as having a predominantly Upper Paleolithic origin from East Africa (Bosch et al. 2001), according to our TMRCA estimates, NO POPULATIONS within North African samples analyzed here have a substantial Paleolithic contribution." "Under the hypothesis of a neolithic demic expansion from the Middle East, the likely origin of E3b in East Africa could indicate a local contribution to the North African neolithic transition (Barker 2003) or an earlier migration into the Fertile Crescent, preceeding the expansion back into Africa." Thought Writes: Of course Nebel et al. have clearly demonstrated that Haplogroup J in North Africa MAINLY date from the Arab invasion and NOT the neolithic period. Hence the East to West Neolithic migration Arredi et al. mentions is really the expansion of saharan cattle herders/ceramic makers from the Sudanese Nile Valley into the Central sahara during the Early Holocene. As the sahara dessicated, the central saharans migrated into the Maghreb, West Africa and back to the Nile. IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 1835 Registered: May 2004	posted 27 November 2004 02:15 PM quote: Originally posted by Thought2: [B] As the sahara dessicated, the central saharans migrated into the Maghreb, West Africa and back to the Nile. B] Thought Posts: http://www.saharajournal.com/15/pages/abs_15.html Andrew B. Smith A prehistory of modern Saharan pastoralists ABSTRACT Using archaeological and ethnographic data, this paper suggests that the ancestors of many modern Saharan pastoral groups, e.g. Tuareg, Toubou, Beja, may have had connections during the mid- to late-Holocene. Deep-meaning, exemplified by rock art and funerary monuments in the past, and pre-Islamic religious beliefs in the present, offer clues to a possible common heritage. It is further suggested that prehistoric Saharan herders may have been cultural innovators, and ideas spread from the Sahara to the Nile Valley and the Maghreb. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 3921 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 27 November 2004 02:16 PM quote: Of course Nebel et al. have clearly demonstrated that Haplogroup J in North Africa MAINLY date from the Arab invasion and NOT the neolithic period. Hence the East to West Neolithic migration Arredi et al. mentions is really the expansion of saharan cattle herders/ceramic makers from the Sudanese Nile Valley into the Central sahara during the Early Holocene. As the sahara dessicated, the central saharans migrated into the Maghreb, West Africa and back to the Nile. ...which would be consistent with the spread of the Berber language from East Africa to Northwest Africa IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 27 November 2004 03:40 PM What you guys are trying to say is that the prehistorical indigenous inhabitants of the Maghrib are actually descended from east Africans right? But based on what? First of all there is no such thing as Negroid or Caucasoid from the biological sense. Race is primarily a social designation. http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?tocId=9376353&query=race&ct= Culture is more important than physical features which vary mostly (85-90%) on the individual level. Gabriel Camps sees the Berbers as decending from Cro-magnoid (prehistorical anatomically modern humans) Metchnoid culture or Taroflat culture as Colin P. Groves sees it. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 November 2004).] IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 3921 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 27 November 2004 04:44 PM quote: What you guys are trying to say is that the prehistorical indigenous inhabitants of the Maghrib are actually descended from east Africans right? I am saying that Berber originates in East Africa. I am saying that Christopher Ehret agrees on this point, and you misquoted him. The complex biological history of the Imazinghen is a distinct issue from the origins of Berber langauge. You do not appear to understand this. On the issue of Imazinghen origins.... quote: Thought Writes: Genetics has CLEARLY traced the Imazighen male lineages back to the early Holocene Horn/Sudanese area and the female lineages mainly to Eurasia. Thought's theory on Imazighen origins seems to be sound prima facie, and you have not offered any evidence to contradict it; HOWEVER, it is more to the point that you do not appear to understand that the genetic lineage of the Imazighen is a distinct issue from the linguistic origin of the Berber. You are trying to turn Berber into a distinct race (Cro-magnoid nonsense) when it is, in fact, a language. Bottom line: Berber originates in East Africa, and you have produced ZERO evidence to the contrary. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 27 November 2004).] IP: Logged
Orionix Member Posts: 513 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 27 November 2004 05:21 PM quote: Rasol wrote: Thought's theory on Imazighen origins seems to be sound prima facie, and you have not offered any evidence to contradict it; HOWEVER, it is more to the point that you do not appear to understand that the genetic lineage of the Imazighen is a distinct issue from the linguistic origin of the Berber. You are trying to turn Berber into a distinct race (Cro-magnoid nonsense) when it is, in fact, a language. Bottom line: Berber originates in East Africa, and you have produced ZERO evidence to the contrary. No, you have no idea what you are talking about. Berber is both referring to language and to the indigenous people of North Africa. Also languages are learned, not biologically inherited. I am talking about the genetic lineage of the Berbers. Most genetic studies i've seen point out for diversity. The indigenous people of the Maghrib developed from Ibero-Maursian and metchanoid cultures and you guys have ZERO evidence to the contrary. Edit: Also Cro-Magnons were no race. They were prehistorical humans. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 November 2004).] [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 November 2004).] IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 3921 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 27 November 2004 05:53 PM quote: Berber is both referring to language and to the indigenous people of North Africa. No. And we asked you earlier to reconsider this foolish encyclopedic plagiarisation: A Berber is any of the descendants of the pre-Arab inhabitants of North Africa, but we can see that you did not do so. Much of North Africa, West Africa, East Africa and the Sahel is descendant precisely from pre Arab North Africa,with a common central Saharan base, and encompassing a vast array of non-Berber peoples. Claiming that all of indigenous North Africa is Berber, is even more foolish than claiming that all of modern North Africa is Arab. quote: Also languages are learned, not biologically inherited. Hence the futility of trying to take the Berber language and the ethnically diverse people who speak Berber, and transform it into a singlular ethnic group. quote: The indigenous people of the Maghrib developed from Ibero-Maursian and metchanoid cultures and you guys have ZERO evidence to the contrary. Incorrect. Their language originates in East Africa. Language is one facet of culture. Since you have failed to dispute the East African origins of Berber langauge, then your statement above is disproven. Now.....whether you can put 2 & 2 together and perceive this, is the issue at hand. But who does not understand this, other than you? [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 27 November 2004).] IP: Logged

This topic is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 All times are GMT (+2)	next newest topic \| next oldest topic
Administrative Options: Close Topic \| Archive/Move \| Delete Topic
	Hop to:

Contact Us | EgyptSearch!