posted 02 December 2004 10:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orionix:
What is genetically European?

Northern Moroccans share their maternal gene pool with Portuguese.

Northern Moroccan Amazigh (like the Rif and Tamazight) were relatively isolated and maintainted their genetic heritage.

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Sharing maternal does not make a person exactly the same genetically. Post proof moron, this is getting pathetic. Capsian refers to a tool industry, NOT a group of early white North Africans. You even have a Kenyan Capsian, are those white also??

posted 02 December 2004 10:34 AM            

quote:

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Rasol:

correction, should read: I said Berber is originally Capsian but have no proof, so I'll keep repeating it out of childish frustration.

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posted 02 December 2004 10:38 AM            

quote:

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Muhammed:

Sharing maternal does not make a person exactly the same genetically. Post proof moron, this is getting pathetic.

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You're the one who should post some proof. Shut the **** up you Arab wanna-be.

quote:

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Muhammed:

Capsian refers to a tool industry, NOT a group of early white North Africans. You even have a Kenyan Capsian, are those white also??

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A Kenyan Capsian? What are you talking about? Post a link for this.

Capsian refers to Neolithic tool industry makers. They were originally from Gafsa in southern Tunisia. Many were black but many other were white.

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 02 December 2004).]

posted 02 December 2004 10:42 AM            

quote:

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The Moors were half Mauritian and half Moroccan. They were from SE Morocco. I was talking about Northern Moroccans

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quote:

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The Rif, Kabyle, Mozabites, Shawiah are predominantly light skinned Berber groups.

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quote:

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Laugh all you want

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posted 02 December 2004 10:49 AM            

quote:

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A Kenyan Capsian? What are you talking about? Post a link for this

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lol. Again: Boy can't play his own game. (Kenyan Capsian was specifically sighted, courtesy S. Muhammad, earlier in this thread), that you react as if you've never heard of it, is revealing. It proves that you know little about the Capsian (beyound what you plagiarise without true comprehension), and it shows that you are so preoccupied with frustrated ranting, that you don't pay attention to what is said.

posted 02 December 2004 10:52 AM            

quote:

---

Rasol:

You could save time, and the need to lie by saying that: "light skinned Berbers are light skinned", which though redundant and equates to: "dark skinned Berbers are dark skinned", would at least be true, but again shows your bad habit of making irrelevant comments, when pressed to support your biased and incoherent views.

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Most Amazigh are light skinned. Face it and shut the **** up.

quote:

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Rasol:

Berber are dark skinned, medium and pale skinned. Berber is a language group and not a race.

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I didn't say it's a race, i said most Berbers are light skinned.

quote:

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Rasol:

Berber originates in tropical East African Neolithic/Holocene and spread from East to West.

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How many times are you going this **** ? Keep your crap to yourself.

Berbers are Capsians and there is nothing which indicates otherwise sofar.

quote:

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Rasol:

Berber does NOT originate as a stone age NW African capsian culture.

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Yes it does. It originated in the Maghrib Caspsian tool industry. Though it was not in the stone age but in the Mesolithic period.

quote:

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Rasol:

You have shown us this yourself, with a complete inability to demonstrate otherwise, and the reduction of argument by repetition of fallacy, in lieu of actual evidence.

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Shut the **** already with the Berbers are tropical east Africans. You have 0 proof for what you're saying.

posted 02 December 2004 10:54 AM            

quote:

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Sharing maternal does not make a person exactly the same genetically. Post proof moron, this is getting pathetic. Capsian refers to a tool industry, NOT a group of early white North Africans

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Orionix' idea of non racial is to grasp at potentially white straws:

as stated earlier, he uses, capsian, caucasian, white, cro-magnon, and leucoderm interchangeably and incoherently., he used Berber in the same way, until someone showed him pictures of the Siwa Oasis Berber.

posted 02 December 2004 11:00 AM            

quote:

---

Rasol:

lol. Again: Boy can't play his own game. (Kenyan Capsian was specifically sighted, courtesy S. Muhammad, earlier in this thread), that you react as if you've never heard of it, is revealing.

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There is no such thing as a Kenyan Capsian industry. Forget it.

This was something cited from an early Anthropological book from 1975. I didn't even read it.

quote:

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Rasol:

It proves that you know little about the Capsian (beyound what you plagiarise without true comprehension), and it shows that you are so preoccupied with frustrated ranting, that you don't pay attention to what is said.

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All it proves that you're troll Afrolunatic Idiot.

You are citing something which someone made up and you think i buy your crap.

quote:

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Rasol:

That's why these 'special education for learning challenged Orionix threads', get so redundant and go on so long.

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As far as i care it can go on 1000 pages until you'll quiet playing your game.

posted 02 December 2004 11:03 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
A Kenyan Capsian? What are you talking about? Post a link for this.

Capsian refers to Neolithic tool industry makers. They were originally from Gafsa in southern Tunisia. Many were black but many other were white.

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 02 December 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 02 December 2004).]

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Arab-wannabe? You moronic fool, I'm a Muslim Hausa, not a dune coon Arab. There is a Kenyan Capsian moron

North Africa shows a different pattern in its eastern and western areas. As before, the east is under the influence of both the Levant and East Africa, while the Maghreb undergoes periods of isolation and local differentiation. Mode 4 industries appear in the area of the Gebel Akhdar Hills, Cyrenaica (McBurney 1960; 1967) and along the Nile Valley (Venneersch a a). 1984; Wendorf et at. 1976). On the eastern edge of the Gulf of Sidra, Mode 4 industries are found at sites like Hagfet et Tera, Haua Fteah and Hagfet ed Dabba, but these are not uniform in character. Made 4 at Hagfet et Tera differs from the typical Eurasian Upper Palaeolithic, while at ed Dabba, Levantine influences are observed (McBurney 19W). Mode 4-5 industries reach the Maghreb towards the end of the period in the form of two ATUs - the Iberornaurusian and the Capsian - which replace the long standing local Mode 3 ATU, the Aterian. The Iberomaurusian is documented from 22 Kyr (early levels at Taforalt, Morocco; and Tamar Hat, Algeria: Camps et at. 1973; Roche 1976). Mode 3 directly overlain by Iberomaurusian levels is documented in several sites (Sidi Mansur, Tunisia; La MciAllah, Algeria; Kifan bel Gbomari: McBumey 1960). South of the Sahara, Mode 4 is restricted to the northeast, found in sites like Hargeisan in Somalia or the Gobedra rockshelter in Ethiopia, and in the ATh called Eburran or Kenyan Capsian, restricted to a small area near Lake Nakuru (Phillipson 1985).
http://www.antiquityofman.com/mode3technologies.html

posted 02 December 2004 11:04 AM            

quote:

---

Rasol:

Hence.....this thread. I call it the Orionix Zero comprehension zone. Welcome aboard S. Muhammad!

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Call it how you want. You guys are pathetic Arab wanna-bees and Afrolunatic losers.

posted 02 December 2004 11:09 AM            

quote:

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It originated in the Maghrib Caspsian tool industry

---

Good luck finding a linguist who thinks the Berber languages originated with stone tools.

Good luck finding a genetisist who thinks the signature Berber Haplotype E3b2 began with Paleolithic stone tool makers in the Maghreb.

Good luck finding an anthropologist who thinks that capsian stone tool making is the defining cultural signifier of Berber.

Good luck finding ANYONE who will take your spectacularly misconceived view of Berber seriously. You'd have a better chance of convincing us that Piltdown man, was the original Berber. Which, come to think of it, it pretty much the equivelant of what you are trying to do -> create a fantasy race of 'presumably' white peoples and pawn them off as the original Berber. Best I can do for you Orionix, is be embarassed on your behalf.

posted 02 December 2004 11:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
Hence.....this thread. I call it the Orionix Zero comprehension zone. Welcome aboard S. Muhammad!

---

Call it how you want. You guys are pathetic Arab wanna-bees and Afrolunatic losers.

[/QUOTE]

Who wants to be an Arab you turd? I proved my point, there was a Kenyan Capsian, and yes, you have ZERO comprehension skills. Later, X4D.

posted 02 December 2004 11:30 AM            

quote:

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As far as i care it can go on 1000 pages

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posted 02 December 2004 11:32 AM            

quote:

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This statement is simply inane.

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The only thing which is insane is you.

quote:

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Rasol:

Good luck finding a linguist who thinks the Berber languages originated with stone tools.

---

Who cares about liguistics?

quote:

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Good luck finding a genetisist who thinks the signature Berber Haplotype E3b2 began with Paleolithic stone tool makers in the Maghreb.

---

The paternal half is East African but the maternal half is West Eurasian.

quote:

---

Rasol:

Good luck finding an anthropologist who thinks that capsian stone tool making is the defining cultural signifier of Berber.

---

Although there is uncertainty about some factors, Aïn el-Hanech (in Algeria) is the site of one of the earliest traces of hominid occupation in the Maghrib. Somewhat later but better attested are sites at Ternifine (near Tighennif, Alg.) and at Sidi 'Abd ar-Rahman, Mor. The former produced hand axes associated with the hominid Homo erectus, a more primitive being than the Neanderthaloids of the same period. Sidi 'Abd ar-Rahman produced evidence of the same hominid, with a date of at least 200,000 BC.

Succeeding these early hand-ax remains are the Levalloisian and Mousterian industries similar to those of the Levant. It is claimed that nowhere did the Middle Paleolithic evolution of flake-tool techniques reach a higher state of development than in North Africa. Its high point in variety, specialization, and standard of workmanship is named Aterian, after the type site of Bi'r al-'Atir in Tunisia; assemblages of this material occur all over the Maghrib and the Sahara. Radiocarbon testing from Morocco indicates a date for early Aterian material of about 30,000 BC. Its diffusion over the region appears to have taken place during one of the periods of desiccation, and the carriers of the tradition were clearly adept desert hunters. The few associated human remains are Neanderthaloid, with substantial differences between those found in the west and those in Cyrenaica. In the latter area, a date of about 43,000 BC for the Levalloisian and Mousterian industries has been obtained (at Haua Fteah). The tools and a fragmentary human fossil of Neanderthaloid type are almost identical to those of Palestine.

The earliest blade industries of the Maghrib, associated as in Europe with the final supersession of Neanderthaloids by Homo sapiens, are named Ibero-Maurusian, or Oranian (type site, La Mouilla, near Oran in western Algeria), an industry of obscure origin, which seems to have spread along all the coastal areas of the Maghrib and Cyrenaica between about 15,000 and 10,000 BC. Following the Ibero-Maurusian was the Capsian, the origin of which is also obscure. Its most characteristic sites are in the area of the great salt lakes of southern Tunisia, the type site being al-Maqta' (el-Mekta), near Qafsah (Capsa, or Gafsa). The climate during both Ibero-Maurusian and Capsian appears to have been relatively dry and the fauna one of open country, ideal for hunting. Between about 9,000 and 5,000 BC, upper Capsian spread northward to influence the Ibero-Maurusian and also eastward to the Gulf of Sidra. Since there is much evidence that the Neolithic culture of the Maghrib was not introduced by invasion but through the acceptance of new ideas and technologies by the Capsian peoples, it is probable that they were the ancestors of the Libyans known in historic times.

The spread of early Neolithic culture in Libya and the Maghrib occurred during the 6th and 5th millennia BC and is characterized by the domestication of animals and the shift from hunting and gathering to self-supporting food production (often still including hunting). The pastoral economy, with cattle the chief animal, remained dominant in North Africa until the classical period. Although the new type of economy may have originated in Egypt or the Sudan, the character of the flint-working tradition of the Maghribian Neolithic argues in favour of the survival of much of the earlier culture, which has been called Neolithic-of-Capsian tradition. Accordingly, the technology of the transition, if not of independent local origin, is best explained by the gradual diffusion of new techniques rather than by the immigration of new peoples.

The Neolithic-of-Capsian tradition in the Maghrib persisted at least into the 1st millennium BC with relatively little change and development; there was no great flourishing of late Neolithic culture and little that can be described as a Bronze Age. North Africa was wholly lacking in metallic ores other than iron, hence most tools and weapons continued to be made of stone until the introduction of ironworking techniques.

Prehistoric rock carvings have been found in the southern foothills of the Atlas south of Oran and in the Ahaggar and Tibesti ranges. While some are relatively recent, the great majority appear to be of the Neolithic-of-Capsian tradition. Some show animals now locally or even totally extinct, such as the giant buffalo, elephant, rhinoceros, and hippopotamus, in areas now covered by desert. While Egyptian-like patterns may be discerned, the character of the rock art is so different from that of Egypt that it can hardly be said to derive from it. On the other hand, it is very much later than the rock paintings of Paleolithic times in southwestern Europe, and an independent development is probable. The art is primarily that of a culture that remained largely, though not exclusively, dependent on hunting and that survived on the Saharan fringes until historical times.

There are many thousands of large, stone-built surface tombs in North Africa that appear to have no connection with earlier megalithic structures found in northern Europe, and it is unlikely that any of them is earlier than the 1st millennium BC. Large structures in Algeria such as the tumulus at Mzora (177 feet [54 metres] in diameter) and the mausoleum known as the Medracen (131 feet in diameter) are probably of the 4th and 3rd centuries BC and show Phoenician influence, though there is much that appears to be purely Libyan.

(Source: Encyclopedia Britannica)

Good luck to Shuqqah (S. Muhammad) and SonhoFunk (rasol) proving Berbers are tropical east Africans.

posted 02 December 2004 11:36 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by S.Mohammad:

Who wants to be an Arab you turd? I proved my point, there was a Kenyan Capsian, and yes, you have ZERO comprehension skills. Later, X4D.

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If you are Shuqqah from Brazzil.com than you the biggest Arab wannabe i've ever seen.

posted 02 December 2004 11:46 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
If you are Shuqqah from Brazzil.com than you the biggest Arab wannabe i've ever seen.

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Turd, I'm not shuqqah from brazzil.com, I go by the same name at Brazzil.com but you are X4D moron

posted 02 December 2004 11:52 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
Turd, I'm not shuqqah from brazzil.com, I go by the same name at Brazzil.com but you are X4D moron

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Dude i am sure you are the same as Shuqqah from Brazzil.com. You also write/"sound" like him. Just admit you have multiple personalities.

Is this not you Shuqqah? Get a life man:

posted 02 December 2004 11:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
Dude i am sure you are the same as Shuqqah from Brazzil.com. You also write/"sound" like him. Just admit you have multiple personalities.

Is this not you Shuqqah? Get a life man:

[QUOTE]I've never seen a dumb stupid "African" such as that pathetic clown calling other Africans big-lipped and praising Arabs like that fool. I'm beginning to think shouf shouf isn't Somali at all, just some random message board troll pretending to be. True Somalis claim to be Somalis, not Arabs or anything Arab.
]http://www.brazzil.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17993&highlight=

---

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 02 December 2004).][/QUOTE]

Listen here moron, I am NOT shuqqah, aka antonio, look at the past threads and your monkeyb ass will see that. You're that turd Charlie Bass was beating, since you called Southern Cushites caucasians. Listen turd, i was calling out shouf shouf, I'm a Hausa of Nigerian descent, you are just a sore loser troll.

posted 02 December 2004 12:05 PM            

quote:

---

S. Muhammad:

Listen here moron, I am NOT shuqqah, aka antonio

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Many people say that abdul (aka Shuqqah) and antonio are the same person.

quote:

---

S. Muhammad:

look at the past threads and your monkeyb ass will see that.

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So you changed your political views.

quote:

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You're that turd Charlie Bass was beating, since you called Southern Cushites caucasians. Listen turd, i was calling out shouf shouf, I'm a Hausa of Nigerian descent, you are just a sore loser troll.

---

Ok, so how do you know who i am?

Charlie Bass was just an alias of Spinarooni.

If you are not Shuqqah (which i'm almost sure you are) than you are Spinarooni, the troll champion from Brazzil.com who got his account banned with a record of 13975 posts.

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 02 December 2004).]

posted 02 December 2004 12:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
Ok, so how do you know who i am?

Charlie Bass was just an alias of Spinarooni.

If you are not Shuqqah (which i'm almost sure you are) than you are Spinarooni, the troll champion from Brazzil.com who got his account banned with a record of 13975 posts.

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 02 December 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 02 December 2004).]

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I am not shuqqah and Charlie Bass was NOT Spinarooni moron, look at this thread and believe me and shuqqah are the same
http://brazzil.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=252834&highlight=#252834

I'm not Spinarooni X4Dummy, I know its you because when you get your arse kicked you react the same way with insults and whining. Ask a moderator there to check the IPs X4Dummy

posted 02 December 2004 12:25 PM            

quote:

---

SM:

I am not shuqqah and Charlie Bass was NOT Spinarooni moron, look at this thread and believe me and shuqqah are the same.
http://brazzil.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=252834&highlight=#252834

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What is it the problem for a troll like you to set up a proxy, to create another account and to change your political views.

I was once a Moderator in a board and i saw 1 troll writing from 8 personas. They all had the same IP address.

quote:

---

SM:

I'm not Spinarooni X4Dummy, I know its you because when you get your arse kicked you react the same way with insults and whining. Ask a moderator there to check the IPs X4Dummy

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I you knew i'm X4D from the beginning of this thread than this means you are either: Shuqqah (aka abdulrahim which got banned), Spinarooni (back from the dead) or SonhoFunk.

Also why the hell do post to yourself?
http://www.brazzil.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17914&highlight=

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 02 December 2004).]

posted 02 December 2004 12:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
I you knew i'm X4D from the beginning of this thread than this means you are either: Shuqqah (aka abdulrahim which got banned), Spinarooni (also banned) or SonhoFunk.

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 02 December 2004).]

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posted 02 December 2004 12:35 PM            

quote:

---

I'm neither one of those people and I'm not using a proxy you towel head. I just know your style dummy and I'm not Sohnofunk either, but you are X4d, since the one thing you and your other alias both do is spam racial reality's website for sources.

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What is my other aliases? You don't know **** . You just exposed yourself.

Just admit you are Shuqqah, the guy who has 100 accounts in Brazzil.com.

However you could also be someone else, maybe Spinarooni (a troll meister), American Black Man and maybe even Cushite.

posted 02 December 2004 12:44 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
What is my other aliases? You don't know **** . You just exposed yourself.

Just admit you are Shuqqah, the guy who has 100 accounts in Brazzil.com.

However you could also be someone else, maybe Spinarooni (a troll meister), American Black Man and maybe even Cushite.

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 02 December 2004).]

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Stupid cunt, at first I was shuqqah now I'm ABM or Cushite? You don't have a clue, your stupidity is merely a mirror of your debate skill.

posted 02 December 2004 01:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
Stupid cunt, at first I was shuqqah now I'm ABM or Cushite? You don't have a clue, your stupidity is merely a mirror of your debate skill.

---

Now you're starting to sound like Rasol.

You're an aliases of some troll from Brazzil.com who knows me very well (presonally) as X4D. There aren't many possibilities Idiot.

I will not be suprised if you are indeed Shuqqah because he is the one who is always choosing Arabic names and flooding boards.

posted 02 December 2004 01:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
Now you're starting to sound like Rasol.

You're an aliases of some troll from Brazzil.com who knows me very well (presonally) as X4D. There aren't many possibilities Idiot.

I will not be suprised if you are indeed Shuqqah because he is the one who is always choosing Arabic names and flooding boards.

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LOL, now I sound like rasol??? Dude you're slipping real fast. Idiot, I know you from brazzil.com because you always tried to whitewash East Africans and north Africans as caucasians, like you tried to do those southern Cushites, how many times has shuqqah debated about Africans? You're moron, this thread gets the didick

posted 02 December 2004 01:27 PM            

quote:

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S.M:

LOL, now I sound like rasol???

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Absolutely yes. You're an alias. Also when you come, rasol is gone.

quote:

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S.M:

Dude you're slipping real fast. Idiot, I know you from brazzil.com because you always tried to whitewash East Africans and north Africans as caucasians, like you tried to do those southern Cushites, how many times has shuqqah debated about Africans? You're moron, this thread gets the didick

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You knew my style and you also knew i'm X4D from a different board so you are very probably Shuqqah.

Shuqqah (aka Abdulrahim) opened up too many threads about Berbers and North Africans, maybe a hundred, not to mention the guy has some 30 screen names.

posted 02 December 2004 02:58 PM            

The following study found mtDNA Haplogroup U6 to be present in Berbers at a 7% average. U6 was found to be highest in Kayable, but it did not exceed 18%, hence it is still less than 1/8 of the total male and female Kayable lineage.
http://www.ifr26.nantes.inserm.fr/img/North_Africa.pdf

posted 02 December 2004 03:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

The following study found mtDNA Haplogroup U6 to be present in Berbers at a 7% average. U6 was found to be highest in Kayable, but it did not exceed 18%, hence it is still less than 1/8 of the total male and female Kayable lineage.
http://www.ifr26.nantes.inserm.fr/img/North_Africa.pdf

---

Basically we cannot tell a Moroccan Kabyle or Rif from an Moroccan Arab.

Although U6 originated in the Near East some 30,000 it seems like it has not been preserved.

Human mitochondrial DNA sequence variation in the Moroccan population of the Souss area.

Brakez Z, Bosch E, Izaabel H, Akhayat O, Comas D, Bertranpetit J, Calafell F.

Laboratoire de Biologic Cellulaire et Moleculaire, Faculte des Sciences, Universite Ibnou-Zohr, Agadir, Morocco.

BACKGROUND: Various populations have contributed to the present-day gene pool of Morocco, including the autochthonous Berber population, Phoenicians, Sephardic Jews, Bedouin Arabs and sub-Saharan Africans. OBJECTIVE: The primary objective of the study was to complete a genetic description of the Berber-speaking population in the Souss region of southern Morocco, based on mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence analysis. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: The first hypervariable segment of the mtDNA control region was sequenced in a sample of 50 individuals from the Souss Valley, and the results compared with the extensive body of data available on mtDNA sequence variation in Europe and sub-Saharan Africa. RESULTS: Thirty-four different sequences were found: an estimated 68% of the sequences occurred throughout Europe, West Asia and North Africa, 26% originated in sub-Saharan Africa, and 6% belonged to the North African specific haplogroup U6. The Souss Valley mtDNA sequences indicated the presence of two populations which expanded at different times: the West Eurasian sequences in the Souss sample had a smaller average number of pairwise differences than pairs of sub-Saharan sequences. CONCLUSION: Detailed knowledge of the possible geographic origin of each sequence facilitated an interpretation of both internal diversity parameters and between-population relationships. The sub-Saharan admixture in the Souss Valley matched the south-north cline of sub-Saharan influence in North Africa, also evident in the genetic distances of North African populations to Europeans and sub-Saharan Africans.

posted 02 December 2004 05:44 PM            

Out of the people who from the earliest of recorded times called themselves Imazighen
exactly who are the Berbers? I think that would be limited to the coastal North Africans
who found themselves under Roman, Byzantine, Vandal, and Arab suzereignty.

According to mainstream anthropology the proto northern African people are a basic melding of three strains:

1. Mechta el Arbi
2. Capsians i.e. Gafsa
3. Neolithic Sudani

posted 02 December 2004 05:46 PM            

I apologize to the rest of the chatters posting on this forum who have been offened by the profanity exchanged.

posted 02 December 2004 07:59 PM            

When someone says Berbers are Capsian (not being informed about what "capsian" is to begin with), implies that Afroasiatic language is of Asian origin, and concludes that Berbers were never "black" while implying that Berbers is a racial group, it is then obvious that such an individual has no idea what "Berber" is to begin with.

When someone says the linguistics is useless and not central to the discussion, when dealing with "Berber", then it is quite clear: THIS PERSON HAS NO BUSINESS TALKING ABOUT "BERBERS"! I mean, it is like someone who is at the stage of learning alphabets, insisting on arguing against a more fluent speaker, about the use of words in the language in question.

posted 02 December 2004 08:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
In ancient Egypt there were two types of Libyans: the Tehennu and Tamahou. The Tehennu were dark-skinned and preceeded the Tamahou who were often depicted as white skinned with reddish or blondish hair. Most likely these types gradually replaced the Tehennu and became dominant in Magreb.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 02 December 2004 08:39 PM            

quote:

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Thought Writes:

There is no evidence linking the Tamahou to the Maghreb. It is of interest that on some forums strange claims such as this go unnoticed.

---

Where did the Tamahou come from? They are definately depicted in the bas-reliefs and they are not Indo-Europeans but actually part of the Lebou[Libyans].

posted 02 December 2004 08:42 PM            

Rando et al.
1998

"The majority of maternal ancestors of the Berbers mus have COME FROM EUROPE and the Near East SINCE the Neolithic."

Gonzalez et al.
2003

The most prominent North African mtDNA was found to be Haplogroup H at a nearly 20% frequency.

Plaza et al.

The most prominent Moroccan Berber mtDNA was found to be Haplogroup H at a frequency of 42.2%.

The most prominent Southern Berber mtDNA was found to be Haplogroup H at a frequency of 32% and V at 10%.

Given these scientific results the following study by Achilli et al. 2004 is of interest. Haplogroups V and H seem to have spread together from the Franco-Cantabrian refugia after the LGM. Table 1 is of particular interest. Haplogroup H has a frequency of 36.8% in Moroccan Berbers and 1.4% in Egyptian Berbers. It has a frequency of 51.9% in Basques and 46.9% in Northern Italians. Haplogroup H has a frequency of 19.9% in Iraq and 10.6% in Arabian Peninsula populations. This indicates that the predominate Berber mtDNA Haplogroups (H and V) did NOT spread from the Near East to NW Africa but from the Iberian peninsula and Europe straight to Africa. This information correspondes with the historical data of female derived slavery into NW Africa.
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Achilli2004.pdf

posted 02 December 2004 08:47 PM            

quote:

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Supercar:

Notice how Orionix changed the focus of the pressure building up on him into rounds of pointless name calling. I suspect that those who often quickly resort to profanity over the internet when they have no meaningful way of backing up their position, will behave quite differently in a face-to-face situation!

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The fact that you had to call me out just demonstrates that you are a pathetic attention starving person.

Also i did not start the profanity here. You guys were inflaming against me since i came to this board.

The fact that you think the that Amazigh people are fully east African descended (which is partially true because their language is Afro-Asiatic) just shows that you have no idea about North African history prior to the paternal Upper Paleolithic expansion from east Africa to the Maghrib.

My point was that whites played a role in North African history (except ancient Egypt)what you guys were not willing to admit because of your biased anti-white agendas.

posted 02 December 2004 08:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Where did the Tamahou come from? They are definately depicted in the bas-reliefs and they are not Indo-Europeans but actually part of the Lebou[Libyans].

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Thought Writes:

posted 02 December 2004 09:09 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orionix:
The fact that you had to call me out just demonstrates that you are a pathetic attention starving person.

Also i did not start the profanity here. You guys were inflaming against me since i came to this board.

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My uninformed one, you called yourself out on this one, for I only stated the fact of the matter, concerning the changing focus on the subject matter from first the "Siwa" Berbers, then to "all" Berbers, and then to pointless name calling concerning some "foreign" thread. Since I made no mention of no one particular person, as far as "who quickly resorts to profanity", again you have called yourself out on this one, thereby acknowledging that you are in fact the guilty party!

quote:

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Orionix:
The fact that you think the that Amazigh people are fully east African descended (which is partially true because their language is Afro-Asiatic) just shows that you have no idea about North African history prior to the Upper Paleolithic expansion from east Africa to the Maghrib.

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Quite simple to expose this shamlessly blatant lie. Quote me on where I said that Amazigh people are "fully" east African descendants! I dare you, Liar.

posted 02 December 2004 09:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Thought: What information do you have regarding the maternal dna of Berbers such as the Siwa, the Taureg and other, more Africoid Berbers? What was the maternal dna of the Berber "before" the bulk of admixture with Eurasian females?

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Thought writes:

posted 02 December 2004 10:52 PM            

The Amazigh were the major original inhabitants of Libya. The main groups were the Luata, the Nefusa, and the Adassa. The Berbers lived in coastal oases and practiced sedentary agriculture. Most of them were enculturated by the Arabs.

Also we already had a topic about North Africa:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/000448.html

posted 02 December 2004 11:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orionix:
Libyans are probably the darkest Berbers.

The Amazigh were the major original inhabitants of Libya. The main groups were the Luata, the Nefusa, and the Adassa. The Berbers lived in coastal oases and practiced sedentary agriculture. Most of them were enculturated by the Arabs.

Also we already had a topic about North Africa:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/000448.html

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posted 02 December 2004 11:37 PM            

• the pre 5000 BCE North Africans
  
• the THHNW and TMHHW of Egyptian times
  
• the Libyans of Herodotus scattered from the Nile westward to the Atlantic
  
• the Berbers of Roman, Byzantine, and the first Arab notice
  
• the Zenata and Zenaga of the West African imperial era
  
• the Tuareg, Bela, Tibbu, Teda and Haritin of our times, and the modern Maurs, West Saharans, Canarians, Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, Libyans, and Siwans?
  

posted 03 December 2004 07:50 AM            

quote:

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Other than the fact of the Tamazight language family is there really any continuity between:

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quote:

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the pre 5000 BCE North Africans "

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quote:

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the THHNW and TMHHW of Egyptian times

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quote:

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the Libyans of Herodotus scattered from the Nile westward to the Atlantic

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posted 03 December 2004 10:41 AM            

quote:

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Supercar:

...Not that any of this has any beariing on "Berber" origins in East Africa! "Relevance" seems to be a hard thing to come by.

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I think it is relevant enough. It's just not relevant to you.

Berber reffers both to the language and the people. Seems like the language was brough in to the Maghrib dominantly by males, probably from Ethiopia, no earlier than 15,000 ago.

In contrary to the paternal lineage, the mtDNA make-up is predominantly from the Neolithic Near East. There were several expansions from the Middle East into North Africa, beginning since the Neolithic.

E3b2 is a specific Berber haplotype which originated locally in NW Africa.

It's a subclade of haplogroup E3b*.

Y-chromosomal haplogroup E3b* originated in sub-Saharan Africa ~26,600 years ago. E3b2 (E-M81) has a general frequency of about 64% in NW Africa, although we don't know it's specific frequency in coastal Northwestern Imazighen like the Rif, Kabyle and Mazabites.

posted 03 December 2004 11:01 AM            

http://www.selamta.net/history.htm

posted 03 December 2004 03:03 PM            

It seems that there was extensive female mediated gene flow from Europe to NW Africa since the mid-holocene and extensive male mediated gene flow from Egypt's Western Oasis regions to NW Africa since the early Bronze age. It is of interest that the following links indicates connections between NW Africa and SW Europe as far back as 5,000 B.C. This connection is supported in the genetic record by a proposed saharan Neolithic gene flow from Africa to Iberia. Perhaps an aspect of the European neolithic was brought to Europe from NW Africa.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/02/afw/ht02afw.htm

"* ca. 5000 B.C. The people of western North Africa are part of trade networks and the cultural community of the western Mediterranean. Locally made pottery displays the same type of ornamentation found in the regions of modern-day Spain and southern France. Examples are cardial ware, a ceramic decorated with impressed seashells, and impressed ware, decorated with designs made by pressing string into the wet clay. Among the materials that come to western North Africa from abroad are obsidian blades from the Lipari Islands near Sicily."

"* ca. 2500 B.C. The international phenomenon known as the Beaker culture begins to affect western North Africa. Named for the distinctively shaped ceramics found in graves, the Beaker culture is associated with the emergence of a warrior mentality and the growth of individualism."

"* ca. 1500 B.C. The climate of the Saharan region undergoes a gradual drying out. The desert separates the peoples of the southern Maghrib from the peoples in the north, who maintain contact with other Mediterranean cultures."

"* ca. 1100 B.C. The Phoenicians, a seafaring people from the Levant, conduct trade in metals from the Iberian Peninsula. They begin to establish colonies on the coast of western North Africa, located along their trade routes."

"* 149 B.C. Despite defeat, Carthage regains its economic strength. New buildings are raised, including a residential quarter. Recovery in Carthage causes anxiety in Rome. The Romans send an army to besiege the city. When it surrenders in 146 B.C., the Romans wreak merciless destruction, leveling the once proud city, enslaving the people, and cursing the very ground against any subsequent habitation."

"* 429 A.D. The Vandals, a Germanic <../../../hd/barb/hd_barb.htm> tribe, invade North Africa from Spain. Their conquests are both brutal and swift, and they occupy Carthage as their capital. Although chaos reigns in the years just after they arrive, order returns in time, and Roman customs continue. The illiterate Vandals adopt the written Latin language, maintain country villas in the Roman style, and restore baths, theaters, and churches."

"* 644-656 Muslim Arab armies, under the reign of the Rightly Guided Caliph <../../../hd/isla/hd_isla.htm> cUthman ibn cAffan, launch raids into and conquer parts of North Africa." "* 1492 The Christian reconquest of Spain ends Nasrid rule <../../../hd/nasr/hd_nasr.htm> centered in Granada, as well as nearly 800 years of Islamic rule in the Iberian Peninsula. In the aftermath, many expelled Muslims and Jews settle in the Maghrib and contribute to the economic and artistic life of the region."

Gonzalez AM, Brehm A, Perez JA, Maca-Meyer N, Flores C, Cabrera VM.

Mitochondrial DNA affinities at the Atlantic fringe of Europe.

Am J Phys Anthropol. 2003 Apr;120(4):391-404.

Departamento de Genetica, Universidad de La Laguna, 38271 La Laguna, Tenerife, Spain. amglez@ull.es

Mitochondrial DNA analysis of Atlantic European samples has detected significant latitudinal clines for several clusters with Paleolithic (H) and Neolithic (J, U4, U5a1, and U5a1a) coalescence ages in Europe. These gradients may be explained as the result of Neolithic influence on a rather homogeneous Paleolithic background. There is also evidence that some Neolithic clusters reached this border by a continental route (J, J1, J1a, U5a1, and U5a1a), whereas others (J2) did so through the Mediterranean coast. An important gene flow from Africa was detected in the Atlantic Iberia. Specific sub-Saharan lineages appeared mainly restricted to southern Portugal, and could be attributed to historic Black slave trade in the area and to a probable Saharan Neolithic influence. In fact, U6 haplotypes of specific North African origin have only been detected in the Iberian peninsula northwards from central Portugal. Based on this peculiar distribution and the high diversity pi value (0.014 +/- 0.001) in this area compared to North Africa (0.006 +/- 0.001), we reject the proposal that only historic events such as the Moslem occupation are the main cause of this gene flow, and instead propose a pre-Neolithic origin for it. Copyright 2003 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

posted 03 December 2004 04:45 PM            

From autosomic CD4 STR/Alu haplotype variation it seems that Europeans share very much in common rather than with North Africans.

Genetic relationships among Berbers and South Spaniards based on CD4 microsatellite/Alu haplotypes.

Esteban E, Gonzalez-Perez E, Harich N, Lopez-Alomar A, Via M, Luna F, Moral P.

Unitat d'Antropologia, Department de Biologia Animal, Facultat de Biologia, Universitat de Barcelona, Spain.

BACKGROUND: CD4 STR/Alu haplotype diversity, both for its qualitative and quantitative properties, has been widely used in molecular anthropology to clarify the degree of genetic relationships among human populations. AIM: CD4 STR/Alu variation was studied in two West Mediterranean samples, Andalusians from La Alpujarra region on the north side of the Gibraltar Strait and Berbers from the south, to ascertain the pattern of affinities between them. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: Alu and microsatellite alleles were tested in 99 Andalusians from La Alpujarra region (Southeast Spain) and 124 Middle Atlas Berbers (Morocco). RESULTS: Two new combinations of Alu and STR alleles (75(+) and 80(-)) were found in Berbers. The CD4 STR/Alu haplotype distribution in South Spaniards is similar to that of other Europeans, the only special feature is the slight presence of the 90(+) and 130(+) typical Sub-Saharan haplotypes. The Berber sample is characterized by a high number of different haplotypes (18) with intermediate heterozygosity values (0.846) in comparison with other North African groups, and by a high frequency of the 110(-) combination that has been proposed as representative of an ancient Northwest African population. CONCLUSION: A geographical gradient of Sub-Saharan gene contribution has been detected in North Africa. The Middle Atlas Berbers showed an intermediate value in comparison with the high and low values found in Mauritanians and Moroccan Berbers, respectively. The analysis of the CD4 STR/Alu haplotype variation failed to indicate any particular relationship between South Spaniards and North Africans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15204363