posted 28 November 2004 12:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
I have ALREADY commented on the assertion that E3b and Haplogroup J were introduced during the Neolithic.

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E3b2 is Near Easterns and haplotype J is European.

quote:

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Nebel et al. have ALREADY demonstrated that the bulk of Haplogroup J was introduced into Berber and North African populations during the Arab conquest.

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Where did you take this from?

quote:

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Meanwhile we still await the mystery genetic evidence, which presumably will link the Siwa the Amazingh et. al to the Capsian.

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The Siwa are Sudanic and Bedouin and are not representative of all the Amazigh.

The Kayble, The Muzabite, the Rifians, Shawia are all descended from prehistorical people of the Maghrib.

quote:

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Rasol:

Orionix only sources aknowledge the introduction of E3b into the Maghreb from East Africa during the Neolithic/Holocene and concurrent with the introduction of Berber language to the region.

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You are the last one to talk. When you cite a study you have to attach a link to it.

E3b2 is Neolithic Near Eastern.

quote:

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Rasol:

Other than refuting his own sources with feign ignorance as only debating tactic, what can Orionix offer to further entertain us?

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My sources clearly contradict what you're saying. The Berbers are not fully east African in origin. They are dominantly east African AND west Asian and the rest is European and sub-Saharan.

posted 28 November 2004 01:04 PM            

quote:

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They are dominantly east African AND west Asian and the rest is European and sub-Saharan.

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posted 28 November 2004 01:18 PM            

Attested presence of Caucasian people in Northern Africa goes up to Paleolithic times. From the archaeological record it has been proposed that, as early as 45,000 years ago (ya), anatomically modern humans, most probably expanded the Aterian stone industry from the Maghrib into most of the Sahara [1]. More evolved skeletal remains indicate that 20,000 years later the Iberomaurusian makers, replaced the Aterian culture in the coastal Maghrib. Several hypothesis have been forwarded concerning the Iberomaurusian origin. They can be resumed in those which propose an arrival, from the East, either from the Near East or Eastern Africa, and those which point to west Mediterranean Europe, either from the Iberian Peninsula, across the Gibraltar Strait, or from Italy, via Sicily, as their most probable homeland [2]. Between 10,000 and 6,000 ya the Neolithic Capsian industry flourished farther inland. The historic penetration in the area of classical Mediterranean cultures, ending with the Islamic domination, supposed a strong cultural influx. However, it seems that the demic impact was not strong enough to modify the prehistoric genetic pool.

Linguistic research suggests that the Afroasiatic phylum of languages could have originated and extended with these Caucasians, either from the Near East or Eastern Africa and that posterior developments of the Capsian Neolithic in the Maghrib might be related to the origin and dispersal of proto-Berber speaking people into the area [3].

Both, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences [4,5], and Y-chromosome binary markers [6,7] detected specific North African haplotypes that confirm an ancient human colonization for this area and a sharp discontinuity between Northwest Africa and the Iberian Peninsula. From a mtDNA point of view, the most informative of these genetic markers is the North African clade U6. On the basis of complete mtDNA sequences, it has been proposed that U6 lineages, mainly found in North Africa, are the signatures of a return to Africa around 39,000–52,000 ya [8].

It is clear that the whole haplogroup U is an offshoot of macrohaplogroup N. This lineage, together with macrohaplogroup M, were the only ones that, belonging to the star radiation of L3 in Africa, left this continent to colonize Eurasia. Five mutations separate N from the root of the African L3.

There are only late evolved N lineages in Africa, whereas representatives of the full N radiation are present in Eurasia. Thus, this continent would be the logical homeland of the proto-U6 that came back to Africa and spread in its northwest area around 30,000 ya (Table 4). Its most probable route had to be through East Africa.

This date roughly corresponds to the Paleolithic occupation of the Maghrib by the Iberomaurusian culture and to the age of the evolved Homo sapiens sapiens skeletons found in this area.

Besides U6, other genetic markers such as 110(-) haplotype of the CD4/Alu system [36], and the M81 Y-chromosome binary marker [6,7], point to an ancient and autochthonous human presence in Northwest Africa. An eastward decline in M81 frequencies has been detected, regrettably the lack of extensive intra-M81 microsatellite diversity studies in Africa precludes phylogeographic comparisons as those done with mtDNA. There are other coincidences between mtDNA data and other systems. For instance, using classical genetic markers, it was found that the Iberian Peninsula showed smaller genetic distances with East Africa than with West Africa [37].

The expansion of Caucasians in Africa has been correlated with the spread and diversification of Afroasiatic languages. There are different hypothesis to explain the Afroasiatic origin. For some, it would be the result of a Neolithic demic diffusion from the Near East to Africa (what the subsequent study points out) [27,28]. For others, the Afroasiatic originated in Africa and had a posterior demic spread to West Asia [29,30]. A third possibility is that Afroasiatic languages spread mostly through cultural contacts either from Africa or from Asia.

In summary, the phylogeography, nucleotide diversity, and coalescence ages of U6 lineages show that this clade came back to Africa in Paleolithic times. Its most probable origin was the Near East and not Europe, and since then, its presence in North Africa has been permanent.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=14563219

As you can see from this study there were several waves of out-of-Africa and back-to Africa which date as far back as the Upper Paleolithic.

This could explain the physical diveristy among Berbers which is gradiently distributed and their intermediate position between Europeans and sub-Saharans.

posted 28 November 2004 01:30 PM            

Thought Writes:

No that is what the ABSTRACT states. What the PAPER states is this:

Thought Posts:

Arredi et al.
2004

“Under the hypothesis of a Neolithic demic expansion from the Middle East, the likely origin of E3b in East Africa could indicate EITHER a LOCAL CONTRIBUTION to the North African Neolithic OR an earlier migration INTO the Fertile Crescent, preceding the expansion BACK into Africa.”

“A clinal pattern of haplography variation like the one we observe can be expected from and EAST-TO-WEST population expansion, and the finding of LOWER E3b2 STR variation in the west than in central North Africa, accompanied by a substantial increase in frequency of this haplography, is most readily explained by expansion into virtually UNINHABITED terrain by populations experiencing increasing drift.”

“In addition, genetic evidence shows that E3b2 is RARE in the Middle East (Semino et al. 2004), making the Arabs an unlikely source for this frequent North African lineage.”

“These people COULD have carried, among others, the E3b and J lineages, AFTER which the M81 mutation arose WITHIN North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population INTO an environment containing FEW Humans.”

Thought Writes:

However, in that Nebel it al. has already found that Haplogroup J did NOT arrive in North Africa to any great extent prior to the Arab invasion. Hence E3b in North Africa did NOT arrive in North Africa in conjunction Haplogroup J and a Middle Eastern demic diffusion. Hence E3b2 mutated from the ancestral East African E3b lineage and was spread in conjunction with the Saharo-Sudanese neolithic (Cattle, Sheep, Polished Stone Tools and Ceramics). Sheep may have been introduced from the Near East, but there is NO evidence that it was done so in conjunction with demic diffusion.

{Also U6 is the dominant Upper Paleolithic maternal haplotpye in NW Africa.}

Thought Writes:

posted 28 November 2004 01:43 PM            

Thought Writes:

The Arredi et al. paper states that E3b2 is North African and Haplogroup J is the standard “Middle eastern” haplotype. Where are you getting your information from?

{Where did you take this from?}
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf

Semino et al
2004

“Distinct histories of J-M267* lineages are suggested: an expansion from the Middle East toward East Africa and Europe and a more RECENT diffusion (marked by the YCAIIa-22/YCAIIb-22 motif) of Arab people from the southern part of the Middle East toward North Africa.”
http://vetinarilord.blogspot.com/2004/11/genetic-evidence-for-expansion-of.html

Nebel et al.
2001

Genetic Evidence for the Expansion of Arabian Tribes into the Southern Levant and North Africa

In a recent publication, Bosch et al. (2001) reported on Y-chromosome variation in populations from northwestern (NW) Africa and the Iberian peninsula. They observed a high degree of genetic homogeneity among the NW African Y chromosomes of Moroccan Arabs, Moroccan Berbers, and Saharawis, leading the authors to hypothesize that "the Arabization and Islamization of NW Africa, starting during the 7th century AD, ... [were] cultural phenomena without extensive genetic replacement" (p. 1023). H71 (Eu10) was found to be the second-most-frequent haplogroup in that area. Following the hypothesis of Semino et al. (2000), the authors suggested that this haplogroup had spread out from the Middle East with the Neolithic wave of advance. Our recent findings (Nebel et al. 2000, 2001), however, suggest that the majority of Eu10 ( Thought Comments: J-M267* ) chromosomes in NW Africa are due to recent gene flow caused by the migration of Arabian tribes in the first millennium of the Common Era (CE).

{My sources clearly contradict what you're saying. The Berbers are not fully east African in origin. They are dominantly east African AND west Asian and the rest is European and sub-Saharan.}

Thought Writes:
That has been our position all along. Your position was that they were of dominant Upper Paleolithic NW African origin. I am glad to see that you have come into the light. By the way, East Africa IS a part of Sub-Saharan Africa.

posted 28 November 2004 01:52 PM            

quote:

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Orionix:The E3b2 haplotype probably spread from the Near East to North Africa in the Neolithic by Afro-Asiatic speaking pastoralists. The study clearly says that.}

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quote:

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Thought Writes:

No that is what the ABSTRACT states. What the PAPER states is this:

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Lol. That's our boy. He reads the title of the study...ignores the study itself, then reaches conclusions that would make the author shake their heads and gasp in horror.

posted 28 November 2004 02:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Lol. That's our boy. He reads the title of the study...ignores the study itself, then reaches conclusions that would make the author shake their heads and gasp in horror.

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How is it possible that you have access to this aritcle?
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v75n2/41184/brief/41184.abstract.html

Are you registered in the AJHG? Or is it not the same study?

I could not access the full text.

Anyway, the abstract clearly says that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.

E3b2 is Neolithic in origin and probably came to North Africa from the Near East through East Africa in the Neolithic. It's the most probable theory.

posted 28 November 2004 02:07 PM            

quote:

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Thought Writes:

That has been our position all along. Your position was that they were of dominant Upper Paleolithic NW African origin. I am glad to see that you have come into the light. By the way, East Africa IS a part of Sub-Saharan Africa.

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No they are diverse but the Neolithic east African origin of the Berbers is more recent, circa 10,000 years ago.

posted 28 November 2004 02:11 PM            

Thought Writes:

Why do we have to be idiots?

{Attested presence of Caucasian people in Northern Africa goes up to Paleolithic times. From the archaeological record it has been proposed that, as early as 45,000 years ago (ya),}

Sight Writes:

That would DEPEND on how one chose to categorize “Caucasian people”. If we are basing this claim on hard body parts, then certainly there were populations with cranio-facial forms akin to European Cro-Magnons. If we are basing this on soft body parts such as skin color or hair texture, then the picture is more obscure. What we can say is that Europeans were still tropically adapted as late as the Mesolithic period.

{ most probably expanded the Aterian stone industry from the Maghrib into most of the Sahara [1].}

Thought Writes:
http://www.geocities.com/juanjosecastillos/english.html

More recent studies place the home of the Aterian in the SE sahara:

Thought Posts:

Ph. Van Peer, "A review of the Late Middle Pleistocene and Early Upper Pleistocene cultural developments in the Middle and Lower Nile Valley" - He said that the best evidence for the Middle to Upper Pleistocene transition comes from Sai island in the Sudan with Sangoan to Acheulian levels. Around 300,000 years ago the transition started in Eastern Africa. Farther north (ie. Sudan) the transition occurred around 200,000 years ago. He found many Sangoan grinding stones (sandstone) which were used for grinding pigments, lumps of which were also found in situ. They found as well grinding stones with indication that they had been used for processing plant material. Then the Sangoan large tools were replaced by blade tools. Afterwards, these were in their turn replaced by Nubian levallois tools. Then the foliates disappeared and were replaced by the Nubian Aterian complex. Then the Aterian emerged, probably in the area of southern Egypt, northern Sudan and southern Libya from where it spread to the west into the Sahara and to northern Africa. Then about 70,000 years ago a blade tool technology appeared, involving a very specialized division of work and a complex social organization. The time covered by this study goes between about 225,000 to 25,000 years ago.

{The historic penetration in the area of classical Mediterranean cultures, ending with the Islamic domination, supposed a strong cultural influx. However, it seems that the demic impact was not strong enough to modify the prehistoric genetic pool.}

Thought Writes:

No way to asses this statement in that Maca-Meyer provides no supporting evidence. However, from virtually EVERY other study we know this I NOT the case.

{the Capsian Neolithic in the Maghrib might be related to the origin and dispersal of proto-Berber speaking people into the area}

Thought Writes:

“Might Be” is the key phrase and we have thus far seen no evidence to suggest that this is the case.

{Y-chromosome binary markers [6,7] detected specific North African haplotypes that confirm an ancient human colonization}

{Besides U6, other genetic markers such as 110(-) haplotype of the CD4/Alu system [36], and the M81 Y-chromosome binary marker [6,7], point to an ancient and autochthonous human presence in Northwest Africa.}

Thought Writes:

The reference is to Bosch and herself. We NOW know that E-M81 (same as E3b2) does NOT indicate Paleolithic colonization, but a Neolithic expansion from NE Africa.

{An eastward decline in M81 frequencies has been detected, regrettably the lack of extensive intra-M81 microsatellite diversity studies in Africa precludes phylogeographic comparisons as those done with mtDNA.}

Thought Writes:

Since this 2003 publication we NOW do have extensive intra-M81 microsatellite diversity studies in Africa for phylogeographic comparisons and we now KNOW that this cluster is of NEOLITHIC NE African origin.

{In summary, the phylogeography, nucleotide diversity, and coalescence ages of U6 lineages show that this clade came back to Africa in Paleolithic times. Its most probable origin was the Near East and not Europe, and since then, its presence in North Africa has been permanent.}

Thought Writes:

Again, NO ONE has claimed otherwise. The point is that U6 is NOT a dominant North African OR Berber lineage.

{As you can see from this study there were several waves of out-of-Africa and back-to Africa which date as far back as the Upper Paleolithic.}

Thought Writes:

There are ONLY TWO cases of Upper Paloelithic migration back into Africa. One brought U6 lineages and the other brought UPSTREAM R1 lineages as found in Northern Cameroon.

{This could explain the physical diveristy among Berbers which is gradiently distributed and their intermediate position between Europeans and sub-Saharans.}

Thought Writes:

The minuscule amount of U6 found in a FEW North African populations does NOT explain the diversity of North African and Berber diversity. A more sound explanation is micro-adaptation to unique, isolated and unpopulated environments of North Africa AND Neolithic migration from NE Africa and recent immigration of females of European background. To recap U6 is a minor lineage in North Africa and in Berber speakers in general, hence it is of minor significance to modern phenotypic variation in the region.

posted 28 November 2004 02:12 PM            

quote:

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“Under the hypothesis of a Neolithic demic expansion from the Middle East, the likely origin of E3b in East Africa could indicate EITHER a LOCAL CONTRIBUTION to the North African Neolithic OR an earlier migration INTO the Fertile Crescent, preceding the expansion BACK into Africa.”

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Either the idigenous East African Berber ancestors migrated directly from East Africa to North and NorthWest Africa.....or they migrated across the Levant, and back to East Africa and then to North/NorthWest Africa.

These are the people who carried with them Berber language, livestock, and the fundamental components of Berber culture. (which is definitely NOT stone tool making from the Capsian)

These are the people who carried with them the trademark haplotype;(E3b) This genetic lineage is the dominent Berber signature; and it is NOT Capsian.

These people ARE NOT the Capsians of the Maghreb, and there is no scholar who asserts otherwise.

quote:

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“A clinal pattern of haplography variation like the one we observe can be expected from and EAST-TO-WEST population expansion, and the finding of LOWER E3b2 STR variation in the west than in central North Africa, accompanied by a substantial increase in frequency of this haplography, is most readily explained by expansion into virtually UNINHABITED terrain by populations experiencing increasing drift.”

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Uninhabited is capitalized for a reason Orionix: where are your Capsians? Genetically they appear to be MIA (missing in action). Are you beginning to understand why this study you cited is contradictory to your view?

quote:

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“In addition, genetic evidence shows that E3b2 is RARE in the Middle East (Semino et al. 2004), making the Arabs an unlikely source for this frequent North African lineage.”

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quote:

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“These people COULD have carried, among others, the E3b and J lineages, AFTER which the M81 mutation arose WITHIN North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population INTO an environment containing FEW Humans.”

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posted 28 November 2004 02:22 PM            

Thought Writes:

The authors of this research study are NOT linguists or archaeologists, they are GENETICISTS, hence we should lean on them for genetic research, not language studies or archaeology. SPECIALISTS in the Afro-Asiatic language phylum such as Ehret, pleace thsi languages birth place in the region of East Sudan to the Horn of Africa. Archaeologists such as Fred Wendorff Mauro Cremaschi and Savino Di Lernia find inter-African (specifically Saharan/Sudanese) roots to the North African neolithic.

{E3b2 is Neolithic in origin and probably came to North Africa from the Near East through East Africa in the Neolithic.}

Thought Writes:

posted 28 November 2004 02:24 PM            

Thought Writes:

I agree.

{My position was all along that the Amazigh of the Maghrib are descended from Upper Paleolithic humans.}

Thought Writes:

The ONLY Upper Paleolithic lineage found in modern Berbers is U6 and this is a MINOR lineage comparitively.

posted 28 November 2004 02:36 PM            

quote:

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Thought Writes:

That has been our position all along. Your position was that they were of dominant Upper Paleolithic NW African origin. I am glad to see that you have come into the light. By the way, East Africa IS a part of Sub-Saharan Africa.

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quote:

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No they are diverse but the Neolithic east African origin of the Berbers is more recent, circa 10,000 years ago.

My position was all along that the Amazigh of the Maghrib are descended from Upper Paleolithic humans.

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Your position changes like a cornered rat looking for a way out.

* you denied the neolithic east african berber origins, now you are admitting it.

* you made the blanket statement that ALL the Berber were descendant of Capsian (ridiculous as applied to Siwa, Sous, Tourag, Chuleh , etc..) but now you retract the claim to the Maghrebian Imazighen who do not represent all Berber any more than the Siwa.

Postscript: I am glad that you finally presented a genetic study which is blatant in it's attempt to caucasianize the Berber (and their East African ancestors), given your statement that: "caucasian is biologically meaningless".

That is the one true statement you've made. But since the whole point of this thread is to RUN AWAY from the African origins of Berber langauge and culture, (which was obvious to all from the parent post) it merely marks you as a desparate and ill informed hypocrite....yet again.

posted 28 November 2004 02:42 PM            

Also it seems like you guys are not up to date. You bring me studies from 2001 while i was talking about a recent study from 2004.

Most Berbers of the Atlas Mountains of Algeria and Morocco could pass for Caucasians, both in terms of skin color and hair form.

This includes the Kabyle, the Tamazight, the Muzabite, the Shawia (Chaouďa) and the Rifians.

Other Berber groups, especially the Haratin and the Siwa would rather pass for Upper Egyptians or Nubians (Northern Sudanese).

Haplotype E3* has many evolutionary brances.

Also haplogroup E3b is not evenly distributed on the African continent.

The three main subclades of haplogroup E3b (E-M78, E-M81, and E-M34) and the paragroup E-M35* are not homogeneously distributed on the African continent: E-M78 has been observed in both northern and eastern Africa, E-M81 is restricted to northern Africa, E-M34 is common only in eastern Africa, and E-M35* is shared by eastern and southern Africans (Cruciani et al. 2002). Given the strong geographic structuring observed for the four subsets of E3b within Africa, it is possible that different E3b lineages also have different frequency profiles in western Eurasia and that the evolutionary events underlying the introduction of E3b chromosomes in this area from Africa were not as simple (Rosser et al. 2000; Richards et al. 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003) as previously proposed (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001).
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40866/40866.html

So E3b2 is just a clade which originated in the Neolithic Near East.

This remainds me of different board when one guy said that native Berbers are Meditarranean Caucasians and was attacked by Afrocentric Idiots:
http://www.brazzil.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9001&postdays=0&postorder=as c&highlight=berbers&start=60
http://www.brazzil.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14556&highlight=berbers

Of course he was part right and part wrong.

Anyway this board is extremely amusing

posted 28 November 2004 02:49 PM            

Thought Writes:

Huh? I have given you each one of my sources.

{Most Berbers of the Atlas Mountains of Algeria and Morocco could pass for Caucasians, both in terms of skin color and hair form. This includes the Kabyle, the Tamazight, the Muzabite, the Shawia (Chaouďa) and the Rifians.
Other Berber groups, especially the Haratin and the Siwa would rather pass for Upper Egyptians or Nubians (Northern Sudanese).}

Thought Writes:

Ok and your point?

{So E3b2 is just a clade which originated in the Neolithic Near East.}

Thought writes:

posted 28 November 2004 03:02 PM            

quote:

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thee main subclades of haplogroup E3b (E-M78, E-M81, and E-M34) and the paragroup E-M35* are not homogeneously distributed on the African continent: E-M78 has been observed in both northern and eastern Africa, E-M81 is restricted to northern Africa, E-M34 is common only in eastern Africa, and E-M35* is shared by eastern and southern Africans (Cruciani et al. 2002). Given the strong geographic structuring observed for the four subsets of E3b within Africa, it is possible that different E3b lineages also have different frequency profiles in western Eurasia and that the evolutionary events underlying the introduction of E3b chromosomes in this area from Africa were not as simple (Rosser et al. 2000; Richards et al. 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003) as previously proposed (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001).

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posted 28 November 2004 03:16 PM            

quote:

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E3b2 is INFREQUENT in the Near East. E3b2 is a NW African SPECIFIC Y-Chromsome branch of E3b. No study states otherwise. If you have one that does state otherwise then please post your source so that we can discuss. Thanks.

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Ok post the link to where you got this from. I think you took from an old study from 2001.

posted 28 November 2004 03:28 PM            

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Originally posted by Orionix:
You know only fools will argue against genetic studies.

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...which would make you an exceptional one, because you normally argue against your own references.

quote:

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Orionix:
And you don't even cite the links to where you take your claims from!

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I thought that was your trademark.

quote:

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Orionix:
Also it seems like you guys are not up to date. You bring me studies from 2001 while i was talking about a recent study from 2004.

Most Berbers of the Atlas Mountains of Algeria and Morocco could pass for Caucasians, both in terms of skin color and hair form...Other Berber groups, especially the Haratin and the Siwa would rather pass for Upper Egyptians or Nubians (Northern Sudanese).

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Pointless. Don't know who isn't aware of diversity among Berbers.

quote:

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Orionix:
Haplotype E3* has many evolutionary brances.

Also haplogroup E3b is not evenly distributed on the African continent.

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And so, who has said otherwise? Need to start learning about taking "relevance" into consideration, when making comments.

posted 28 November 2004 03:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orionix:
Ok post the link to where you got this from. I think you took from an old study from 2001.

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Did you not read your own reference, in respect to this subclade?

quote:

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Orionix:
E3b2 (a subclade of E3b) spread in the Neolithic from the Near East by Afro-Asiatic speaking pastoralists to NW Africa through east Africa by the Red Sea.

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posted 28 November 2004 03:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by supercar:
If you are implying the origins in West Asia, where is your peer-reviewed scientific reference that states precisely that?

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posted 28 November 2004 03:56 PM            

quote:

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Rasol wrote:

That is the one true statement you've made. But since the whole point of this thread is to RUN AWAY from the African origins of Berber langauge and culture, (which was obvious to all from the parent post) it merely marks you as a desparate and ill informed hypocrite....yet again.

continue.....

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Again you are talking out your ass.

Experts are not sure about the origin about the Afro-Asiatic language family. Where it developed etc.

We know that East Africa was not the only origin of the Amzigh. This is just the paternal lineage which dates to the Neolithic.

However there were much more ancient events in NW Africa.

U6 (dates back to Upper Paleolithic Near East 30,000 ago) and L3E (dates back to Neolithic and probably originated expanded from East Africa to North Africa). These are the predominant maternal haplotypes found in NW Africa.

posted 28 November 2004 04:04 PM            

quote:

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Experts are not sure about the origin about the Afro-Asiatic language family. Where it developed etc.

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posted 28 November 2004 04:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
He doesn't understand that E3b2 is M81. Reminds me of his previous confusion over haplotypes. The boy can't play his own game. Pathetic.

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E3b2 = E-M81

E-M81 is typical of Berbers, and it's also present in Iberia and Sicily due to recent gene flow from North Africa.

But where did spread it from? In the early Neolithic it spread from Near East through East Africa.

posted 28 November 2004 04:12 PM            

Thought Writes:

I already posted the link to Semino et al, 2004:
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf

posted 28 November 2004 04:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Linguists, including Christopher Ehret are virtually unanimous on the African origins of this language phylum. You have been challenged to site a linguist to asserts otherwise and obviously can't. Hence, your usual vitrolic and insubstantive response.
next.....

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Believe it or not but Cavalli-Sforza (in his book) says otherwise. He says that the phylom spread from it's Middle Eastern base 15,000 ago. Maybe it's partly true but needs further research.

Also the evidence is exclusively linguistic.

We don't have solid evidence where proto-Afro-Asian was spoken.

posted 28 November 2004 04:18 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
He doesn't understand that E3b2 is M81. Reminds me of his previous confusion over haplotypes. The boy can't play his own game. Pathetic.

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quote:

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E-M81 is typical of Berbers, and it's also present in Iberia and Sicily due to recent gene flow from North Africa. But where did spread it from?

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In addition to not understanding which Haplotype is being referred to Orionix doesn't actually read studies he sights.

He cited Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa Barbara Arredi, et al. and quoted from the abstract, not the study because he hasn't actually read it.

If he had the full study he would know where "M81 arose WITHIN NORTH AFRICA" is a direct quote from the very study he sighted.

Instead he argues over the study in complete ignorance asking us WHERE the information comes form. Truly pathetic.

posted 28 November 2004 04:19 PM            

Thought Posts:

Semino et al, 2004

“E-M81 (E3b2) is almost absent in Europe and the Middle East but characterizes the MAJORITY of Y-Chromosomes of populations from Northwestern Africa.”

Thought Writes:

posted 28 November 2004 04:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orionix:
However there were much more ancient events in NW Africa.

U6 (dates back to Upper Paleolithic Near East 30,000 ago) and L3E (dates back to Neolithic and probably originated expanded from East Africa to North Africa). These are the predominant maternal haplotypes found in NW Africa.

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posted 28 November 2004 04:24 PM            

Believe it or not but Cavalli-Sforza (in his book) says otherwise. He says that the phylom spread from it's Middle Eastern base 15,000 ago. Maybe it's partly true but needs further research.

Thought Responds:

posted 28 November 2004 04:27 PM            

quote:

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Supercar:

Again, "relevance" is the catchword. You keep referring to the U6, when this haplotype has a relatively minor significance among the "Berbers".

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Minor relevance? What the hell are you talking about? It's full history.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is of minor relevance.

There was a set of events which took place in NW Africa since the Upper Paleolithic era.

posted 28 November 2004 04:31 PM            

quote:

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Minor relevance? What the hell are you talking about? It's full history[/B]

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Thought Writes:

posted 28 November 2004 04:32 PM            

* spreading from South East to NorthWest, and with various offshoot populations resulting, some of whom have no particular affiliation with the Maghreb.

* inter-mixing as they spread East to West with other indigenous Africans and more recent waves of immigrants from Eurasia and the Near East.

* with a Maghreb specific pattern of African male and recent European female lineages suggestive of the historic white slave trade?

posted 28 November 2004 04:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Thought does this characterize your view of Berber origins: Emerging from an East African, tropically adapted, proto-Berber speaking E3b genetic signature bearing population in the Neolithic/Holocene....

* spreading from South East to NorthWest, and with various offshoot populations resulting, some of whom have no particular affiliation with the Maghreb.

* inter-mixing as they spread East to West with other indigenous Africans and more recent waves of immigrants from Eurasia and the Near East.

* with a Maghreb specific pattern of African male and recent European female lineages suggestive of the historic white slave trade?

Is that correct summation of your view?

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Thought Writes:

Yes, well said!

posted 28 November 2004 04:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
He cited Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa Barbara Arredi, et al. and quoted from the abstract, not the study because he hasn't actually read it.

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You don't have the study.

Also the abstract is a summary of the whole study. What is written in the abstract is correct but not technical enough.

quote:

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Rasol:

If he had the full study he would know where "M81 arose WITHIN NORTH AFRICA" is a direct quote from the very study he sighted.

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E-M81 is specific NW African, Berber male lineage.

E-M81 is very common in northwestern Africa, with frequencies as high as 80% (Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study), but its frequency sharply declines on the continent toward the east, and the haplogroup is not found in sub-Saharan Africa. The distribution of E-M81 chromosomes in Africa closely matches the present area of distribution of Berber-speaking populations on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroupethnic group parallelism: in northwestern Africa, the lowest frequencies for this haplogroup have been reported in two Arab-speaking Moroccan populations (31% and 52% vs. 65%80% in six Berber speaking groups from Morocco and Algeria [Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study]); in Egypt, where Berbers are restricted to a few villages, E-M81 is rare (1.9%), and the southernmost finding of E-M81 chromosomes on the continent is that here reported in the Tuareg from Niger (9.1%), who also speak a Berber language. Outside of Africa, E-M81 has been observed in all the six Iberian populations surveyed, with frequencies in the range of 1.6%4.0% in northern Portuguese, southern Spaniards, Asturians, and Basques; 12.2% in southern Portuguese; and 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria. It has been suggested (Bosch et al. 2001) that recent gene flow may have brought E3b chromosomes from northwestern Africa into Iberia, as a consequence of the Islamic occupation of the peninsula, and that such gene flow left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The relatively young TMRCA of 5.6 ky (95% CI 4.66.3 ky) that we estimated for haplogroup E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African haplotypes in the network of E-M81 (fig. 2C) support the hypothesis of recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40866/40866.html

posted 28 November 2004 04:52 PM            

quote:

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that recent gene flow may have brought E3b chromosomes from northwestern Africa into Iberia, as a consequence of the Islamic occupation

---

quote:

---

The relatively young TMRCA of 5.6 ky (95% CI 4.66.3 ky) that we estimated for haplogroup E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African haplotypes in the network of E-M81 (fig. 2C) support the hypothesis of recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia.

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posted 28 November 2004 04:57 PM            

quote:

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Thought:

The Cavalli-Sforza is NOT a linguists or archaeologists, he is a GENETICIST, hence we should lean on him for genetic research, not language studies or archaeology. SPECIALISTS in the Afro-Asiatic language phylum such as Ehret, pleace thsi languages birth place in the region of East Sudan to the Horn of Africa. Archaeologists such as Fred Wendorff Mauro Cremaschi and Savino Di Lernia find inter-African (specifically Saharan/Sudanese) roots to the North African neolithic.

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OK there was a spread from the western Coast of Africa to NW Africa but this is only part of the picture. Christopher Eret says this.

Also seems like this happened in the Neolithic and not in the Upper Paleolithic. So the dates overlap very well with the Capsian industry (8,000-2,700) of southern Tunisia.

quote:

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Thought Writes:
MOST mtDNA lineages found in NW African populations POST DATE the Arab invasion of North Africa. U6 is a MINOR mtDNA lineage in that it makes up no more than 15% of the female lineages of NW Africa. Most NW Africans have female lineages of European origin.

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Not accurate all at. Where did you take these statistics from? Whose study was this? Please post the whole link. Thanks in advance.

posted 28 November 2004 05:03 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
E-M81 is specific NW African, Berber male lineage.

E-M81 is very common in northwestern Africa, with frequencies as high as 80% (Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study), but its frequency sharply declines on the continent toward the east, and the haplogroup [B]is not found in sub-Saharan Africa. The distribution of E-M81 chromosomes in Africa closely matches the present area of distribution of Berber-speaking populations on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroupethnic group parallelism: in northwestern Africa, the lowest frequencies for this haplogroup have been reported in two Arab-speaking Moroccan populations (31% and 52% vs. 65%80% in six Berber speaking groups from Morocco and Algeria [Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study]); in Egypt, where Berbers are restricted to a few villages, E-M81 is rare (1.9%), and the southernmost finding of E-M81 chromosomes on the continent is that here reported in the Tuareg from Niger (9.1%), who also speak a Berber language. Outside of Africa, E-M81 has been observed in all the six Iberian populations surveyed, with frequencies in the range of 1.6%4.0% in northern Portuguese, southern Spaniards, Asturians, and Basques; 12.2% in southern Portuguese; and 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria. It has been suggested (Bosch et al. 2001) that recent gene flow may have brought E3b chromosomes from northwestern Africa into Iberia, as a consequence of the Islamic occupation of the peninsula, and that such gene flow left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The relatively young TMRCA of 5.6 ky (95% CI 4.66.3 ky) that we estimated for haplogroup E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African haplotypes in the network of E-M81 (fig. 2C) support the hypothesis of recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia.

[/B]

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Again, all this study is basically saying, is that the EM81 is predominant in Northwestern Berber speaking populations, who made some contributions to the gene pool of southern Europeans you mentioned; it doesn't suggest otherwise. It doesn't even attempt to say that it has roots in West Asia or Europe for that matter. EM81 is the subclade of E3b, with its origins in East Africa, and I have yet to see any convincing material from you, that suggests otherwise.

posted 28 November 2004 05:04 PM            

quote:

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Rasol wrote:

yes and?

Orioinix: maybe if you close your eyes and spin around 3 times, when you open them again....these studies say what you want them to say...rather than what they are actually saying. Or, maybe not.

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It's says a lot. NW Africans and Iberians might have shared a common paternal gene pool some 5,600 years ago.

posted 28 November 2004 05:11 PM            

quote:

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Rasol:

Again, all this study is basically saying, is that the EM81 is predominant in Northwestern Berber speaking populations, who made some contributions to the gene pool of southern Europeans you mentioned; it doesn't suggest otherwise. It doesn't even attempt to say that it has roots in West Asia or Europe for that matter. EM81 is the subclade of E3b, with its origins in East Africa, and I have yet to see any convincing material from you, that suggests otherwise.

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E3b originated in East Africa some 25,600 years ago but E-M81 is Berber specific.

posted 28 November 2004 05:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orionix:
It's says a lot. NW Africans and Iberians might have shared a common paternal gene pool

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However it is consistent with....

Thought Writes:
I was reviwing a few studies and noticed some intersteing patterns among NW Africans TYPICALLY (I realize this is a broad region with variation on the micro level). NW Africans have Y Chromosomes (male lineages) that emerge from Holocene (recent epoch) Sub-Saharan East Africa at a rate of about 75%. About 20% of their male lineages emerge from Holocene Eurasia. Typically about 70% of the mtDNA (female lineages) in NW Africa come from Holocene Eurasia and about about 30% from Sub-Saharan East and West Africa (M1 and L lineages). U6, which is of Upper Paleolithic origin (and hence not associated with modern phena) occurs in pooled NW African groups at about 15%. So in a broad sense one might say that NW Africa contributed male lineages to SW Europe and SW Europe contributed female lineages to NW Africa.

posted 28 November 2004 05:13 PM            

quote:

---

Rasol writes:

Thought posted:

I was reviwing a few studies and noticed some intersteing patterns among NW Africans TYPICALLY (I realize this is a broad region with variation on the micro level). NW Africans have Y Chromosomes (male lineages) that emerge from Holocene (recent epoch) Sub-Saharan East Africa at a rate of about 75%. About 20% of their male lineages emerge from Holocene Eurasia. Typically about 70% of the mtDNA (female lineages) in NW Africa come from Holocene Eurasia and about about 30% from Sub-Saharan East and West Africa (M1 and L lineages). U6, which is of Upper Paleolithic origin (and hence not associated with modern phena) occurs in pooled NW African groups at about 15%. So in a broad sense one might say that NW Africa contributed male lineages to SW Europe and SW Europe contributed female lineages to NW Africa.

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Do you have the link to this study? Please post it.

Thanks...

posted 28 November 2004 05:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
It's says a lot. NW Africans and Iberians might have shared a common paternal gene pool some 5,600 years ago.

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The genetic implication of the E3b subclade being introduced into the gene pool of the aforementioned southern European groups, goes back to the point about the "Berber" with common language base, that originated in East Africa. This is the whole point you've been dancing around.

posted 28 November 2004 05:16 PM            

Thought Writes:

Stormfront is a shady source. Yet they did post this paper in full:
http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/pillars.htm

Annals of Human Genetics
Volume 67 Issue 4 Page 312 - July 2003

Joining the Pillars of Hercules: mtDNA Sequences Show Multidirectional Gene Flow in the Western Mediterranean
S. Plaza, F. Calafell, A. Helal, N. Bouzerna, G. Lefranc, J. Bertranpetit and D. Comas

“Given that the frequency of U6 in NW Africa is 10%”
www.geocities.com/refuting_kemp/Gonzalez2003.pdf

Mitochondrial DNA Affinities at the Atlantic Fringe. of Europe.

Ana M. Gonzalez et al
2003

“For the former, we consider only the mean value of the U6 frequency in northern African populations, excluding Saharans, Tuareg, and Mauritanians (16%)…”

posted 28 November 2004 05:17 PM            

quote:

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E3b originated in East Africa some 25,600 years ago but E-M81 is Berber specific.

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Supercar wrote:

quote:

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And so who has said otherwise? Need to start learning about taking "relevance" into consideration, when making comments.

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posted 28 November 2004 05:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orionix:
It's says a lot. NW Africans and Iberians might have shared a common paternal gene pool some 5,600 years ago.
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 28 November 2004).]

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Thought Writes:

posted 28 November 2004 05:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
Do you have the link to this study? Please post it.

Thanks...

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 28 November 2004).]

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Thought Writes:

See links below:

http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/pillars.htm

Annals of Human Genetics
Volume 67 Issue 4 Page 312 - July 2003

Joining the Pillars of Hercules: mtDNA Sequences Show Multidirectional Gene Flow in the Western Mediterranean

S. Plaza, F. Calafell, A. Helal, N. Bouzerna, G. Lefranc, J. Bertranpetit and D. Comas

“Given that the frequency of U6 in NW Africa is 10%”
www.geocities.com/refuting_kemp/Gonzalez2003.pdf

Mitochondrial DNA Affinities at the Atlantic Fringe. of Europe.

Ana M. Gonzalez et al
2003

“For the former, we consider only the mean value of the U6 frequency in northern African populations, excluding Saharans, Tuareg, and Mauritanians (16%)…”

posted 28 November 2004 05:30 PM            

quote:

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Thought Writes:

Please provide a quote for the statement above.

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I have provided enough proof. No need to go deeper into this subject.

It's nice to see that you are taking your stuff from Stormfront.

Stormfront is Neo-Nazi site where mainly Americans participate.

posted 28 November 2004 05:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orionix:
I have provided enough proof. No need to go deeper into this subject.

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A sigh of defeat on your part?

quote:

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Orionix:
It's nice to see that you are taking your stuff from Stormfront.

Stormfront is Neo-Nazi site where mainly Americans participate.

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