posted 27 November 2004 06:17 PM            

quote:

---

Much of North Africa, West Africa, East Africa and the Sahel is descendant precisely from pre Arab North Africa,with a common central Saharan base, and encompassing a vast array of non-Berber peoples. Claiming that all of indigenous North Africa is Berber, is even more foolish than claiming that all of modern North Africa is Arab.

---

BS! What the hell is a central Saharan base?

The Sahara is broad region. Just because the Afro-Asiatic language family developed in what is know a desert called the Sahara doesn't mean much.

Britannica gave the correct definition of Berber.

posted 27 November 2004 06:35 PM            

quote:

---

Rasol wrote:

Incorrect. Their language originates in East Africa. Language is one facet of culture.

---

Language is part of culture but culture includes many other things like ideas, beliefs, customs, codes, institutions, tools, techniques, works of art, rituals, and ceremonies, among other elements.

I was talking about the Berber culture which developed from the Ibero-Maurasian. People were probably living in the Maghrib since Paleolithic times.

Edit: In Paleoanthropology the term culture often relates to stone-tool industry.

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 November 2004).]

posted 27 November 2004 06:44 PM            

quote:

---

BS! What the hell is a central Saharan base?

---

Lol. He really is clueless isn't he? Foul mouthed too.

Perhaps Orionix should read from his encylopedia more, and mis-quote from it less:

Encyclopidia Africana:
Cattle as Capital: Early Complex Societies of the Sahara and Sahel
By the third millennium B.C.E, a broad swath of cultures economically dominated by pastoralism stretched across the African Sahel, from modern Sudan to Mauritania. At that time the Sahara was much moister than it is today, being carpeted with grasslands and crisscrossed by seasonally filled waterways and ponds. Its vast expanse was also populated with linguistically and culturally diverse groups that had both pastoral and hunter-gatherer ways of life. The small stone and earthen tumuli and monuments left in the wake of the early pastoral cultures attest to a degree of social ranking in the former probably based around the accumulation of livestock and widely traded polished stone objects (beads, arm rings, axes, etc.). The origins of these mobile complex societies extend almost to the beginnings of cattle-keeping in Africa, whose origins may be as early as 7000 B.C.E in the northeastern corner of the continent.

From a relatively early date, they were constructing small stone monuments of a communal nature, including a circle of standing stones (built between 5000 and 4000 B.C.E, near Nabta Playa, Egypt), and small tumuli for cattle "sacrifices" or lineage bulls (c. 5000 B.C.E, Niger and Chad). n, however, monuments of a more individualistic nature would appear across the central Sahara. Stone tumuli, alignments, and burial complexes, singling out the elites of these societies for special treatment, are well documented from 4000 B.C.E until the virtual abandonment of the gradually desiccating region during the first millennium B.C.E . In two places, environmental and external social factors crystallized these mobile societies into more sedentary and complex polities, such as those known from Kerma and Dhar Tichitt.

You may want to study the history of the Fulani, the Kanuri, the Hausa, and the entire Chadic branch of Afro Asiatic (so called) language as well.

Also the worlds oldest mummy found in the central sahara: (The Black mummy )

The programme explores the enigmatic central Saharan society which once spanned the entire north African continent
http://www.fulcrumtv.com/blackmummy.htm
Does that answer your question?

You are trying to define all of North Africa by the Maghreb, and then magically 'move' the Berber language out of East Africa. Points for sheer audacity...but none for cleverness....sorry.

posted 27 November 2004 06:53 PM            

quote:

---

You are trying to define all of North Africa by the Maghreb, and then magically 'move' the Berber language out of East Africa. Points for sheer audacity...but none for cleverness....sorry.

---

Language is only part of culture. And in Paleoanthropology culture is often in reference to stone-tool industry.

The Berbers are descended from the Capsian industry (8000 BC-2700 BC), very likely a continuation of the Ibero-Maurasian. Most sites are located in the area of the great salt lakes of what is now southern Tunisia, the type site being Jabal al-Maqta', near Qafsah (Capsa, French Gafsa).

posted 27 November 2004 07:16 PM            

quote:

---

Language is only part of culture.

---

quote:

---

The Berbers are descended from the Capsian industry

---

However...they all have association with the East African Sudan, from where their language base originates. Indeed, Capsian has been shown to have little relevance to this conversation other than in effect, a nonsense word you use to run away from the facts of the East African origins of the Berber, which apparently, you don't like.

posted 27 November 2004 07:39 PM            

Thought writes:

That is what I am saying.

{But based on what?}

Thought Writes:

Genetics, linguistics and archaeology.

{First of all there is no such thing as Negroid or Caucasoid from the biological sense.}

Thought Writes:

Ok? And your point is?

{Gabriel Camps sees the Berbers as decending from Cro-magnoid (prehistorical anatomically modern humans) Metchnoid culture or Taroflat culture as Colin P. Groves sees it.}

Thought Writes:

Camps research POST dates modern genetic analysis of living Berber speakers.

posted 27 November 2004 07:46 PM            

Thought Writes:

As am I and the ONLY PALEOLITHIC genetic lineage found in modern Berber speakers is the female lineage U6.

{The indigenous people of the Maghrib developed from Ibero-Maursian and metchanoid cultures and you guys have ZERO evidence to the contrary.}

Thought Writes:

Sure we do. The genetic evidence indicates that most male lineages are east African derived E-M81 and most female lineages are either recent Eurasian or Sub-Saharan, with Eurasian dominating.

In that you state above that Berbers are GENETICALLY descendent from Paleolithic NW Africans please provide a source that confirms this. As noted previously, the Bosch study has been updated with more current data that finds NO Paleolithic male lineages. Please tell us SPECIFICALLY which Y-Chromosome and mtDNA lineages you believe date to the Paleolithic era of NW Africa.

Remember your claim: “I am talking about the genetic lineage of the Berbers.”

posted 27 November 2004 07:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
[B] I was talking about the Berber culture which developed from the Ibero-Maurasian. People were probably living in the Maghrib since Paleolithic times. [B]

---

Thought Writes:

Please provide a source that shows archaeological continuity in Paleolithic NW African CULTURE and Berber culture?

Tell us SPECIFICALLY what these cultural similarities are?

posted 27 November 2004 07:53 PM            

quote:

---

However...they all have association with the East African Sudan, from where their language base originates.

First of all Sudan is not in eastern Africa so i have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Also language and stone-tool industry is not the same. Capsian was a Mesolithic stone-tool industry.

[QUOTE]Rasol writes:

Indeed, Capsian has been shown to have little relevance to this conversation other than in effect, a nonsense word you use to run away from the facts of the East African origins of the Berber, which apparently, you don't like.

---

So what? This is just an opinion.

As long as you say things like that without scientific proof it's an opinion.

Post some kind of scientific proof to support what you are saying (that Berbers are descended from east Africans).

The Imazighen are physically diverse but their origin is agreed to be the Capsian stone-tool industry, a continuation of the Ibero-Maurasian Metchnoid cultures of the Maghrib.

posted 27 November 2004 07:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
[QUOTE]The Imazighen are physically diverse but their origin is agreed to be the Capsian stone-tool industry, a continuation of the Ibero-Maurasian Metchnoid cultures of the Maghrib.

---

Thought Writes:

Isn't it really an oxymoron to claim that "Imazighen are physically diverse" and then claim that they all derive from one common source: "Ibero-Maurasian Metchnoid's"?

posted 27 November 2004 08:02 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Please provide a source that shows archaeological continuity in Paleolithic NW African CULTURE and Berber culture?

Tell us SPECIFICALLY what these cultural similarities are?

Thanks in advance.

---

The U6 famale lineage was descended from western Asia some 30,000 years ago. And genetically Berbers are diverse.

mtDNA (maternal) sequences, labeled L3E (east African in origin) and U6 (west Asian in origin), were detected at frequencies of 96% in Moroccan Berbers, 82% in Algerian Berbers and 78% in non-Berber Moroccans, compared with only 4% in a Senegalese population.

(Rando et al., Ann Hum Genet, 1998)

Now the Capsian stone-tool industry is basically a continuation of the Ibero-Maurasian.

The Ibero-Maurasian industry is a North African stone-tool industry dating from the late Würm (last) Glacial Period, about 16,000 years ago. The former presumption that the industry extended into Spain explains the prefix “Ibero-” in the name. The industry does bear a close resemblance to the late Magdalenian culture in Spain, which is broadly contemporary (c. 15,000 BC). Subsequent study, however, suggests that the Ibero-Maurusian industry is derived from a Nile River valley culture known as Halfan, which dates from about 17,000 BC. Human remains are rather frequently associated with Ibero-Maurusian artifacts, and it appears that the industry belonged to a group of people known as the Mechta-el-Arbi race, considered to have been a North African branch of Cro-Magnon man.

Cro-Magnon were a population of anatomically modern Homo sapiens dating from the Upper Paleolithic Period (c. 35,000 to 10,000 years ago).

The Ibero-Maurusian industry, much more widespread than the Mesolithic Capsian industry (8000–2700 BC), is found along the entire coastline of North Africa and inland as well as in Morocco, Tunisia, and the Cyrenaica (Barqah) region of Libya. It is characterized by a great many small-backed blades and, unlike the Capsian, an absence of burins (a sort of chisel, probably used for working wood).

(Encyclopedia Britannica)
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9041886&query=Ibero-Marausian&ct=

posted 27 November 2004 08:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Isn't it really an oxymoron to claim that "Imazighen are physically diverse" and then claim that they all derive from one common source: "Ibero-Maurasian Metchnoid's"?

---

Well they are all descended from the Capsian stone-tool industry of the Maghrib.

quote:

---

At any rate, most Imazighen male lineages derive from Sub-Saharan East Africa.

---

An Upper Paleolithic colonization that probably had its origin in eastern Africa contributed 75% of the current gene pool.

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 27 November 2004).]

posted 27 November 2004 08:17 PM            

quote:

---

Isn't it really an oxymoron to claim that "Imazighen are physically diverse" and then claim that they all derive from one common source: "Ibero-Maurasian Metchnoid's"?

---

quote:

---

At any rate, most Imazighen male lineages derive from Sub-Saharan East Africa.

---

Evidently Orionix thinks that East African Berber language and East African genetic haplotypes 'spontaneously generated' among Imazingh, and does not constitute "proof"? I think he was cronked in the head by a Capsian stone tool.

posted 27 November 2004 08:44 PM            

E3b is a paternal haplotype. U6, a maternal haplotype which originated in western Asia some 30,000 ago is very important either.

The most probable origin of the proto-U6 lineage was the Near East. Around 30,000 years ago it spread to North Africa where it represents a signature of regional continuity. Subgroup U6a reflects the first African expansion from the Maghrib returning to the east in Paleolithic times. Derivative clade U6a1 signals a posterior movement from East Africa back to the Maghrib and the Near East. This migration coincides with the probable Afroasiatic linguistic expansion. U6b and U6c clades, restricted to West Africa, had more localized expansions. U6b probably reached the Iberian Peninsula during the Capsian diffusion in North Africa. Two autochthonous derivatives of these clades (U6b1 and U6c1) indicate the arrival of North African settlers to the Canarian Archipelago in prehistoric times, most probably due to the Saharan desiccation. The absence of these Canarian lineages nowadays in Africa suggests important demographic movements in the western area of this Continent.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/4/15

posted 27 November 2004 09:17 PM            

quote:

---

if they did originate in eastern Africa they were Cro-Magnon and it was a very long time ago.

---

As for cro magnoid, it is a just another nonsense word, that you use to hide from the truth of the African origins of Berber....

quote:

---

Thought Posted:
African Exodus
The Origins of Modern Humanity
By Christopher Stringer and Robin McKie
Owl Books
Page 162

"Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of Modern Europeans. Some were more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by objective anatomical categorizations, as is the case with some early modern skulls from the Upper Cave at Zhoukoudian in China

---

However it is interesting that you are now attempting to use skeletal anthropology to contradict genetics, since you earlier denounced skeletal measurments as 'invalid'. Your inconsistent rhetoric exposes how desperate you are to justify your biased views.

posted 27 November 2004 09:44 PM            

quote:

---

However it is interesting that you are now attempting to use skeletal anthropology to contradict genetics, since you earlier denounced skeletal measurments as 'invalid'. Your inconsistent rhetoric exposes how desperate you are to justify your biased views.

---

Skeletal anthropology is invalid among modern humans but earlier humans had different anatonomy than modern humans have.

Cro-Magnons were prehistorical humans. They lived circa 35,000 to 10,000 years ago.

posted 27 November 2004 09:50 PM            

quote:

---

Rasol wrote:

Bzzt. Wrong. East African Berber language and E3b haplotype spread to Northwest Africa during the Neolithic and together help define the origin of that which is "Berber".

---

So what E3b is a paternal lineage. Their maternal lineage, U6, is West Asian. The whole picture is much more complex then you think.

This is why they are generally agreed to be descended from the Mesolithic Capsian industry of NW Africa.

What are you trying to do, proving that Berbers are black Africans? Don't be ridiculous. This is racism.

posted 27 November 2004 10:06 PM            

quote:

---

Rasol wrote:

Bzzt. Wrong. East African Berber language and E3b haplotype spread to Northwest Africa during the Neolithic and together help define the origin of that which is "Berber".

---

quote:

---

So what E3b is a paternal lineage. Their maternal lineage, U6, is West Asian.

---

quote:

---

Thought Writes:
I was reviwing a few studies and noticed some intersteing patterns among NW Africans TYPICALLY (I realize this is a broad region with variation on the micro level). NW Africans have Y Chromosomes (male lineages) that emerge from Holocene (recent epoch) Sub-Saharan East Africa at a rate of about 75%. About 20% of their male lineages emerge from Holocene Eurasia. Typically about 70% of the mtDNA (female lineages) in NW Africa come from Holocene Eurasia and about about 30% from Sub-Saharan East and West Africa (M1 and L lineages). U6, which is of Upper Paleolithic origin (and hence not associated with modern phena) occurs in pooled NW African groups at about 15%. So in a broad sense one might say that NW Africa contributed male lineages to SW Europe and SW Europe contributed female lineages to NW Africa. In this light, the following article may be of interest: http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040310-115506-8528r.htm

---

quote:

---

The whole picture is much more complex then you think.

---

quote:

---

This is why they are generally agreed to be descended from the Mesolithic Capsian industry of NW Africa.

---

quote:

---

What are you trying to do?

---

posted 27 November 2004 10:29 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

Orionix:
What are you trying to do?

Clowning you for chuckles, mostly. As for an 'agenda'. It's your thread, Fred; we are simply replying to it. So ask yourself what YOUR agenda is?

---

Orionix hasn't refuted anything that been put forward about East African origins of the Berber. In essence, whenever he asks for proof or more sources, despite the already aboundant references to sources by others (himself being the exception), he is actually asking to be educated on the topic…not that he would openly admit to doing so!

posted 27 November 2004 10:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by supercar:
Orionix hasn't refuted anything that been put forward about East African origins of the Berber. In essence, whenever he asks for proof or more sources, despite the already aboundant references to sources by others (himself being the exception), he is actually asking to be educated on the topic…not that he would openly admit to doing so!

---

Berbers are not fully descended from eastern Africa. You are the only one who thinks this. What is your source for this?

They are descended from multiple lineages, including the Near East and maybe even Europe.
http://www.stats.gla.ac.uk/~vincent/papers/980656.web.pdf
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/4/15

Fact is that the full evolutionary picture of the Amazigh dates to the Paleolithic and was not achieved yet.

posted 27 November 2004 10:48 PM            

quote:

---

Rasol wrote:

I was reviwing a few studies and noticed some intersteing patterns among NW Africans TYPICALLY (I realize this is a broad region with variation on the micro level). NW Africans have Y Chromosomes (male lineages) that emerge from Holocene (recent epoch) Sub-Saharan East Africa at a rate of about 75%. About 20% of their male lineages emerge from Holocene Eurasia. Typically about 70% of the mtDNA (female lineages) in NW Africa come from Holocene Eurasia and about about 30% from Sub-Saharan East and West Africa (M1 and L lineages). U6, which is of Upper Paleolithic origin (and hence not associated with modern phena) occurs in pooled NW African groups at about 15%. So in a broad sense one might say that NW Africa contributed male lineages to SW Europe and SW Europe contributed female lineages to NW Africa.

---

You're a faker. It is not the real study. Where did you take this from?

quote:

---

In the present study we have analyzed 44 Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms in population samples from northwestern (NW) Africa and the Iberian Peninsula, which allowed us to place each chromosome unequivocally in a phylogenetic tree based on >150 polymorphisms. The most striking results are that contemporary NW African and Iberian populations were found to have originated from distinctly different patrilineages and that the Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a strong (although not complete) barrier to gene flow. In NW African populations, an Upper Paleolithic colonization that probably had its origin in eastern Africa contributed 75% of the current gene pool. In comparison, 78% of contemporary Iberian Y chromosomes originated in an Upper Paleolithic expansion from western Asia, along the northern rim of the Mediterranean basin. Smaller contributions to these gene pools (constituting 13% of Y chromosomes in NW Africa and 10% of Y chromosomes in Iberia) came from the Middle East during the Neolithic and, during subsequent gene flow, from Sub-Saharan to NW Africa. Finally, bidirectional gene flow across the Strait of Gibraltar has been detected: the genetic contribution of European Y chromosomes to the NW African gene pool is estimated at 4%, and NW African populations may have contributed 7% of Iberian Y chromosomes. The Islamic rule of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The high-resolution analysis of the Y chromosome allows us to separate successive migratory components and to precisely quantify each historical layer.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n4/002582/002582.html

---

However this is only the paternal lineages which originated in eastern Africa.

The fact that you guys fake studies shows what kind of people i'm dealing with here.

posted 27 November 2004 10:57 PM            

Thought Writes:

No one disagrees with this.

{mtDNA (maternal) sequences, labeled L3E (east African in origin) and U6 (west Asian in origin), were detected at frequencies of 96% in Moroccan Berbers, 82% in Algerian Berbers and 78% in non-Berber Moroccans, compared with only 4% in a Senegalese population. (Rando et al., Ann Hum Genet, 1998)}

WRONG!

Thought Posts:

“The majority of the maternal ancestors of the Berbers must have come from Europe and the Near East since the Neolithic.”

Mitochondrial DNA analysis of Northwest African populations reveals genetic exchanges with European, Near-Eastern, and sub-Saharan populations

1998

J. C. RANDO
F. PINTO
A. M. GONZÁLEZ
M. HERNÁNDEZ
J. M. LARRUGA
V. M. CABRERA
H.-J. BANDELT

Abstract
Genetic studies have emphasized the contrast between North African and sub-Saharan populations, but the particular affinities of the North African mtDNA pool to that of Europe, the Near East, and sub-Saharan Africa have not previously been investigated. We have analysed 268 mtDNA control-region sequences from various Northwest African populations including several Senegalese groups and compared these with the mtDNA database. We have identified a few mitochondrial motifs that are geographically specific and likely predate the distribution and diversification of modern language families in North and West Africa. A certain mtDNA motif (16172C, 16219G), previously found in Algerian Berbers at high frequency, is apparently omnipresent in Northwest Africa and may reflect regional continuity of more than 20000 years. The majority of the maternal ancestors of the Berbers must have come from Europe and the Near East since the Neolithic. The Mauritanians and West-Saharans, in contrast, bear substantial though not dominant mtDNA affinity with sub-Saharans.

Thought Writes:

As I stated, the MAIN female/mtDNA lineages of North West Africans (and Berbers) are of RECENT Eurasian origin. The dominant male/Y-Chromosome lineage is of recent East African origin. My position stands!

posted 27 November 2004 10:58 PM            

quote:

---

However this is only the paternal lineages which originated in eastern Africa.

---

quote:

---

The fact that you guys fake studies shows what kind of people i'm dealing with here.

---

Bwahahahahahahaha! That's a funny line coming from you. And since I believe you actually made that one up yourself and didn't steal from anyone else, I give you bonus points, just for the irony.

Maybe you should take that line back to the Egyptian dreams.com website, where they put you down for stealing their comments, and then pasting them on this website I'll even vouch for the fact that you didn't steal it this time. Really!

posted 27 November 2004 11:01 PM            

“I am talking about the genetic lineage of the Berbers.”

Then You Stated:

“An Upper Paleolithic colonization that probably had its origin in eastern Africa contributed 75% of the current gene pool.”

Thought Writes:

Thus far you have presented NO CREDIBLE evidence to support this contention. All of your “evidence” seems to come from on-line encyclopedias. Give us some credible evidence?

posted 27 November 2004 11:07 PM            

Sight Writes:

Please provide us with evidence of Cro-Magnons in Early Holocene East Africa. E3b2, the Berber lineage has a TMRCA (The Most Recenet Common Ancestor or Divergance Date) of 4000 B.C., hence this mutation came into existance DURING the neolithic period.

{E3b is a paternal haplotype. U6, a maternal haplotype which originated in western Asia some 30,000 ago is very important either.}

Thought Writes:

Correct, however E3b is the DOMINANT NW African Berber Y-Chromosome lineage, U6 is NOT the dominant NW African Berber mtDNA lineage as YOUR Rando et al. study so CLEARLY demonstrates.

posted 27 November 2004 11:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
Skeletal anthropology is invalid among modern humans

---

Thought Writes:

posted 27 November 2004 11:12 PM            

Thought Writes:

There is NO agreement on this, in fact the egentic data directly CONTRADICT this assertion.

{What are you trying to do, proving that Berbers are black Africans? Don't be ridiculous. This is racism.}

Thought Writes:

Let's no use conspiracy theories or racism as a crutch in these debates. You have simply not provided us with any credible evidence to support your positions.

posted 27 November 2004 11:58 PM            

quote:

---

Noo....again, you don't understand these studies and are like a child playing with matches when referencing them.

---

I understand them better than you and I also demonstrated it.

quote:

---

Bwahahahahahahaha! That's a funny line coming from you. And since I believe you actually made that one up yourself and didn't steal from anyone else, I give you bonus points, just for the irony.

---

quote:

---

Maybe you should take that line back to the Egyptian dreams.com website, where they put you down for stealing their comments, and then pasting them on this website I'll even vouch for the fact that you didn't steal it this time. Really!

---

quote:

---

Though wrote:
Thus far you have presented NO CREDIBLE evidence to support this contention. All of your “evidence” seems to come from on-line encyclopedias. Give us some credible evidence?

---

quote:

---

Though wrote:
Let's no use conspiracy theories or racism as a crutch in these debates. You have simply not provided us with any credible evidence to support your positions.

---

posted 28 November 2004 12:27 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:

Originally posted by supercar:
Orionix hasn't refuted anything that been put forward about East African origins of the Berber. In essence, whenever he asks for proof or more sources, despite the already aboundant references to sources by others (himself being the exception), he is actually asking to be educated on the topic…not that he would openly admit to doing so!

Berbers are not fully descended from eastern Africa. You are the only one who thinks this. What is your source for this?

They are descended from multiple lineages, including the Near East and maybe even Europe.
http://www.stats.gla.ac.uk/~vincent/papers/980656.web.pdf
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/4/15

Fact is that the full evolutionary picture of the Amazigh dates to the Paleolithic and was not achieved yet.

[/B]

---

posted 28 November 2004 12:37 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by supercar:
I think you have a problem with reading. I said "origins", and you are talking of "diversity"; there is a difference between the two. I think you really lack the reading skills needed to comprehend the message being conveyed, as evidenced by the way you interpret the various "unidentified" sources you have been presenting here, since you've joined the board.

---

If you don't believe these sources that it is your problem. Just because you do like it doesn't mean it isn't correct.

I haven't heard of any reason to doubt they are descendants of the Capsians, beyond that it's clearly unconfirmed.

Also among the Rifians and Kabyle green eyes and red hair are not unheard of.

posted 28 November 2004 12:55 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
If you don't believe these sources that it is your problem. Just because you do like it doesn't mean it isn't correct.

I haven't heard of any reason to doubt they are descendants of the Capsians, beyond that it's clearly unconfirmed.

Also among the Rifians and Kabyle green eyes and red hair are not unheard of.

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 28 November 2004).]

---

How can I dislike sources, that don't say what you are interpreting them to be saying? How can I even begin to have a stance on your sources, when they don't refute what others have been trying to explain to you, and when you have still failed to provide peer-reviewed scientific proof for your "Capsian" theorey? Face it, there is nothing to like or dislike here, other than to say that we are still waiting for the irrefutable proof on the "Capsian" origins, as opposed to East Africa.

posted 28 November 2004 01:04 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by supercar:
How can I dislike sources, that don't say what you are interpreting them to be saying? How can I even begin to have a stance on your sources, when they don't refute what others have been trying to explain to you, and when you have still failed to provide peer-reviewed scientific proof for your "Caspian" theorey? Face it, there is nothing to like or dislike here, other than to say that we are still waiting for the irrefutable proof on the "Caspian" origins, as opposed to East Africa.

---

East Africa is only part of the complex picture.

Actually i havn't read any good arguments against the Mesolithic Capsian theory of southern Tunisia. Anything beyond that point is completely unconfirmed yet.

Also many Berbers would not be confused for east Africans, especially those who live in the isolated mountainous areas of Algeria and Morocco:

posted 28 November 2004 02:12 AM            

quote:

---

Also many Berbers would not be confused for east Africans, especially those who live in the isolated mountainous areas of Algeria and Morocco:

<http://www.cri.ensmp.fr/people/boucheba/kabylie/kabylie.html>

<http://www.maroc-hebdo.press.ma/MHinternet/Archives_538/ph_538/ch%C5%BDrif.jpg>

<http://www.croqnature.com/matlasfemmew.jpg

---

Actually around certain portions of the Anti-Atlas some Shuluh actually do have an eastern African apperance. I would agree with you about the Shawia,Riffi,Mzab,and Kaybele.

However, the high caste of Tuaregs do look very much like Eastern African people. The Siwi also look very Eastern African and they have been just as isolated from foreginers as the Kaybele and Riffi. There are also populations of Eastern African appearing people around Djerba Island in Tunisa.

To be an Imazigh is not so much your race but your cultural and linguistic heritage. The darker skinned Berbers come from the Sahara,and the lighter ones come from the Coastal regions which had early contact with parts of Iberia and Southern Europe.

When the Arabs invaded many of the Berber tribes fled to the mountain tops and some joined the Arabs in conversion of Islam. The later invasions of Bani Hilal and Bani Sulaiyum tribes in what is modern day Libya pushed some Tuareg groups southward into Mauritania and Mali.

Also there were a series of invasions into Northern Africa around the reign of Rameses III of Sea People. Around this time we see the chariot artwork around the Sahara desert,and also around this time lighter people begin to appear as the Tamahou. Previously the Tehennu Libyans were shown as a dark brown hue much like the modern Siwa people. See the book ''The Eastern Libyans'' by Oric Bates. He documents this.

posted 28 November 2004 02:47 AM            

quote:

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Ausar wrote:

Actually around certain portions of the Anti-Atlas some Shuluh actually do have an eastern African apperance. I would agree with you about the Shawia,Riffi,Mzab,and Kaybele.

However, the high caste of Tuaregs do look very much like Eastern African people. The Siwi also look very Eastern African and they have been just as isolated from foreginers as the Kaybele and Riffi. There are also populations of Eastern African appearing people around Djerba Island in Tunisa.

To be an Imazigh is not so much your race but your cultural and linguistic heritage. The darker skinned Berbers come from the Sahara,and the lighter ones come from the Coastal regions which had early contact with parts of Iberia and Southern Europe.

When the Arabs invaded many of the Berber tribes fled to the mountain tops and some joined the Arabs in conversion of Islam. The later invasions of Bani Hilal and Bani Sulaiyum tribes in what is modern day Libya pushed some Tuareg groups southward into Mauritania and Mali.

Also there were a series of invasions into Northern Africa around the reign of Rameses III of Sea People. Around this time we see the chariot artwork around the Sahara desert,and also around this time lighter people begin to appear as the Tamahou. Previously the Tehennu Libyans were shown as a dark brown hue much like the modern Siwa people. See the book ''The Eastern Libyans'' by Oric Bates. He documents this.

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I agree with you.

Generally they vary gradiently and cannot be physically stereotyped by any means.

posted 28 November 2004 09:29 AM            

quote:

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I understand them better than you and I also demonstrated it.

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No one had put me down of Egyptian dreams.

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The expert guy in Egyptian dreams is Segereh

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and according to what I know he doesn't seem to like you very much.

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Thought wrote: you have produced no credible evidence

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quote:

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Orioinix wrote: You think you know more than Encarta and Britannica? Give me a break.

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Thought is correct. A single quote, taken out of context from Britanica, and wrongly attributed to Christopher Ehret does not constitute proof of anything other than your lack of reading comprehension.

This is from the same article you are quoting:

Genetic evidence seems to indicate that the Berbers are descended from several waves of immigration into the area
with some degree of population change, probably as part of the original spread of agriculture during the Neolithic.

That part is actually consistent with Thoughts comments and contradicts your own.

There is little evidence in that Britanica article that they are literally trying to account for all Berber origins by way of the Capsian. And, if they are, then the article is in contradiction. However this requires a subtle reading comprehension, which you have never shown the slightest symptom of possessing. You hear only what you want to hear in order to fill your thick head with nonsense.

The facts stand:

Berber is a language that originates in East Africa.

Berber language and peoples spread from East Africa to Northwest Africa.

Berbers are ethnically and physically diverse, and are the products of much mixture and waves of migration.

All pre Arab North Africans are not Berbers, so Berber is not equivelant to North African.

Berber does not originate in the Capsian. No association has been shown between the many different Berber groups and the Capsian.

Scholorship and evidence, including from Christopher Ehret, have been sighted who confirm the above.

In spite of Orionix usual hysterical ranting; nothing of substance has been offered that significantly contradicts the above facts.

Anyone with actual information to the contrary, please post it.

posted 28 November 2004 10:02 AM            

Thought Writes:

Please, let us not veer off of the path of civil debate.

{No you have not.}

Thought Writes:

Sure I have. I have provided evidence from archaeology, linguistics and genetics (which was the basis of your claim). There is NO substantive evidence linking modern Berbers with the Paleolithic populations of NW Africa. Eurasian genes were introduced into this region with the Arab invasion and the ensuing White slave trade.

posted 28 November 2004 10:06 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orionix:
I haven't heard of any reason to doubt they are descendants of the Capsians, beyond that it's clearly unconfirmed.
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 28 November 2004).]

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Thought Writes:

Sure you have. The genetic analysis of modern Berbers CLEARLY link them with Neolithic and post-Neolithic diffusions into NW Africa FROM NE Africa.

You chose not retreat from your original claim, because there is no evidence to support it:

“I am talking about the genetic lineage of the Berbers.”

posted 28 November 2004 10:10 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orionix:
Also many Berbers would not be confused for east Africans, especially those who live in the isolated mountainous areas of Algeria and Morocco[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 28 November 2004).]

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Thought Writes:

posted 28 November 2004 10:20 AM            

Thought Writes:

posted 28 November 2004 11:19 AM            

quote:

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Rasol:

No. You don't understand any of your own sources, none of whom agree with your ideas, which contradict archeology, genetics and linguistics. In 50 replies to this conversation you have not produced a single scholar who supports your review.

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Most of the genetic studies do perfectly agree with my ideas. The maternal lineage (mtDNA) of the Berbers originated in Upper Paleolithic western Asia and from there spread to NW Africa. On the contrary, their paternal lineages is predominantly Upper Paleolithic east African.

You guys could not prove otherwise. Again you are just looking for hairs in eggs and this brings you nowhere.

quote:

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Rasol:

Uh yes, they did.

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No they didn't. The only Afrocentric dumb ass is you.

quote:

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Rasol:

Well, he is the one you steal from, yes.

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What do you care? It is not your site and it is none of your businees what i'm posting there.

quote:

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Rasol:

I don't post on that site.

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I honestly doubt it because you're the kind of people who have too much time on their hand.

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Rasol:
I simply searched your plagiarised remarks and found that they came from Egyptdreams.com, and also noted that they asked you to stop running to them with questions and then posting uncredited remarks as if they were your own.

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It is not your site so it is none of your business what I am posting there. The fact that you follow me around, searching texts just shows how you desperately need to get a life.

quote:

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Rasol wrote:

Thought is correct. A single quote, taken out of context from Britanica, and wrongly attributed to Christopher Ehret does not constitute proof of anything other than your lack of reading comprehension.

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Christopher Ehret says that the Berbers, the native people of the Mahgrib are the descendants of the Capsian people. Beyond that is not completely confirmed yet.

Also in Britannica there is a full, authoritative article about the history of North Africa (except Egypt). There were humans living in the Maghrib since Upper Paleolithic times (30,000 ago) and they developed from the Ibero-Maurasian Metchnoid culture. Radio-Carbon dating from Morocco indicates an industry which took place some 30,000 years ago.

quote:

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There is little evidence in that Britanica article that they are literally trying to account for all Berber origins by way of the Capsian. And, if they are, then the article is in contradiction. However this requires a subtle reading comprehension, which you have never shown the slightest symptom of possessing. You hear only what you want to hear in order to fill your thick head with nonsense.

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There is a lot of archeological evidence for this. Humans were present in the Maghrib since Upper Paleolithic times. And the Amazigh are descended from the native people of the Maghrib and this does not include Egypt. You just an Afrocentric who doesn't like the fact that Berbers are not fully east African in origin.

quote:

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Rasol:
Berber is a language that originates in East Africa.

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How many times are you going to say this **** ? This is the only place I hear that. Berber is not only language and their origin is not fully east African.

quote:

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Rasol:
Berber language and peoples spread from East Africa to Northwest Africa.

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quote:

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Rasol wrote:
Berbers are ethnically and physically diverse, and are the products of much mixture and waves of migration.

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So you are contracting what you said earlier and making a fool of yourselves.

quote:

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Rasol wrote:
All pre Arab North Africans are not Berbers, so Berber is not equivelant to North African.

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Berber is equivalent to the native people in the Maghrib.

quote:

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Rasol:
Berber does not originate in the Capsian. No association has been shown between the many different Berber groups and the Capsian.

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They are descended from Capsians, like it or not.

quote:

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Rasol:
Scholorship and evidence, including from Christopher Ehret, have been sighted who confirm the above.

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Yes, that they are descended from Capsians of the Maghrib and you have zero evidence on the contrary.

quote:

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Though wrote:

Sure I have. I have provided evidence from archaeology, linguistics and genetics (which was the basis of your claim). There is NO substantive evidence linking modern Berbers with the Paleolithic populations of NW Africa. Eurasian genes were introduced into this region with the Arab invasion and the ensuing White slave trade.

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quote:

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Thought:

Sure you have. The genetic analysis of modern Berbers CLEARLY links them with Neolithic and post-Neolithic diffusions into NW Africa FROM NE Africa.
You chose not retreat from your original claim, because there is no evidence to support it:

“I am talking about the genetic lineage of the Berbers.”

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posted 28 November 2004 11:25 AM            

quote:

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And the basis of this culture (Saharan Neolithic) and Language (Sudan/Horn of Africa) began in the Horn/Sudanese area based upon current research.

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The Berbers are not Saharan Neolithic. Also the Sudan is not part of the horn of Africa.

You guys are full of **** man.

The Berbers are descended from the Capsian industry of the Neolithic Maghrib and there is no evidence on the contrary.

posted 28 November 2004 11:48 AM            

quote:

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Most of the genetic studies do perfectly agree with my ideas.

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quote:

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On the contrary, their paternal lineages is predominantly Upper Paleolithic east African.

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posted 28 November 2004 12:04 PM            

quote:

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Rasol:
Berber is a language that originates in East Africa.
How many times are you going to say this **** ?

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We have found that most things which are relevant and true must be repeated several times in order to get thru that thick head of yours. Even then, it only lasts for 24/48 hours, and then you forget, and we have to repeat the process. It's painful I know, but necessary.

quote:

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Berber is not only language

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The Amazingh may have considerable European maternal DNA from historical white slave trade in the Maghreb, whereas the Siwa may be more directly related to the peoples of Sudan.

Capsian Stone tool making is not a genetic haplotype, but rather a cultural trait, and not particularly relevant to Berber culture at all.

posted 28 November 2004 12:07 PM            

quote:

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Wrong. E3b2 (the signature Berber Haplotype) is Neolithic, not Paleolithic. Once again from your own encylopedia reference: Genetic evidence seems to indicate that the Berbers are descended from several waves of immigration into the area with some degree of population change, probably as part of the original spread of agriculture during the NEO-LITH-IC.The upper Paleolithic, 'pre-dates' the signature Berber haplotypes. Can't you even grasp that simple fact? I guess not.
Again your problem stems from both a lack of understanding off genetics, and a total inability and unwillingness to understand your own citations. That is the only point you've made thus far in this thread.

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Ok a study from 2001 said otherwise. Results change. The more people, binary markers and microsatellites you study the more accurate the results will be.

But how does this prove your point that Berbers are east African in origin?

Also the Afro-Asiatic super-language family could well had spread from the Near East in the Neolithic and not from eastern Africa. Experts are quite devided on this.

Also why don't you post the full study:

A predominantly neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa.

Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, Zerjal T, Fathallah DM, Makrelouf M, Pascali VL, Novelletto A, Tyler-Smith C.

Istituto di Medicina Legale, Universita Cattolica del Sacro Cuore di Roma, Rome, Italy. b_arredi@libero.it

We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model. Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.

This study is relatively new therfore i do not have access to the whole article which will be freely accesible for reading only in the next 4 month.

The Eb2 haplotpe could have spread from the Near East into North Africa in the Neolithic.

posted 28 November 2004 12:07 PM            

Thought Writes:

We are STILL waiting on your sources/references to this claim? You have given us a couple and when we looked into them they said the OPPOSITE of what you are here claiming! Please provide your sources?????

{On the contrary, their paternal lineages is predominantly Upper Paleolithic east African}

Sight Writes:

E3b2 is NEOLITHIC in origin based upon its mutation date (TMRCA). Please provide ONE source that claims otherwise?

{No they didn't. The only Afrocentric dumb ass is you.}

Thought Writes:

Ausar, I think you need to step in here. The incivility distracts from the search for the truth.

{Christopher Ehret says that the Berbers, the native people of the Mahgrib are the descendants of the Capsian people.}

Thought Writes:

No he does not.

Thought Posts:

Egypt In Africa
Edited by Celenko
1996

“The speakers of the earliest Afraasian languages, according to recent studies, were a set of peoples whose lands between 15,000 and 13,000 B.C. stretched from Nubia in the West to far northern SOMALIA in the east.”

“The FIRST elements of Egyptian culture were laid down two thousand years later, between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C., when some of these Afrasian communities expanded northward into Egypt…”

Thought Writes:

From the above statement we can detect two critical points:

1) Sudan and The Horn of Africa constituted a cultural continuum during the late Pleistocene.

2) Afro-Asiatic languages could NOT have expanded into NW Africa before the Holocene (Recent Epoch) because they didn’t enter Egypt until the Holocene.

{Also in Britannica there is a full, authoritative article about the history of North Africa (except Egypt).}

Thought Writes:

Please tell us why you believe that the Britannica is more authoritative than peer-reviewed, scientific journals published since 2000?

{There is a lot of archeological evidence for this. Humans were present in the Maghrib since Upper Paleolithic times.}

Thought Writes:

No doubt.

{And the Amazigh are descended from the native people of the Maghrib and this does not include Egypt.}

Thought Writes:

The ONLY lineage found to date from the Upper Paleolithic Maghreb is U6 and that is NOT a dominant lineage.

{You just an Afrocentric who doesn't like the fact that Berbers are not fully east African in origin.}

Thought Writes:

No one has claimed that they were FULLY East African in origin. Their male lineages are of a dominant East African HOLOCENE origin and their female lineages are of a POST Arab conquest European origin.

{How many times are you going to say this **** ?}

Thought Writes:

Ausar????? This guy is getting out of hand and is being disrespectful. I have no problem with a diversity of opinions, but there is no need to be disrespectful. We are all seekers of truth!

{This is the only place I hear that.}

Thought Writes:

We are a progressive lot.

{Berber is not only language and their origin is not fully east African.}

Thought Writes:

We are making no such claim.

{Generally, the Berbers are Capsians.}

Thought Writes:

No evidence connects the MODERN Berbers with the ANCIENT Capsians. If you have some, please present it. Thanks.

{Berber is equivalent to the native people in the Maghrib.}

Thought Writes:

Base upon what?

{Yes, that they are descended from Capsians of the Maghrib and you have zero evidence on the contrary. }

Thought Writes:

You seem a bit fanatical in your convictions?

{You have provided **** .}

Thought Writes:

Ausar?

{Berbers are linked to Upper Paleolithic populations of the Maghrib (30,000 years ago). Dude you have 0 evidence on the contrary.}

Thought Writes:

SOME Berbers AND NON-Berbers ae linked to Upper Paleolithic NW Africans via mtDNA cluster U6. Again, this is NOT a dominant North African OR Berber lineage.

{And genetic studies link the Berbers to Upper Paleolithic times.}

Thought Writes:

posted 28 November 2004 12:18 PM            

quote:

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Thought writes: And the basis of this culture (Saharan Neolithic) and Language (Sudan/Horn of Africa) began in the Horn/Sudanese area based upon current research.

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quote:

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Orioinix writes: the Sudan is not part of the horn of Africa.

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posted 28 November 2004 12:19 PM            

Thought Writes:

No mainstream LINGUIST supports this contention. Based upon glottochronology Semetic (the ONLY Non-African branch of Afro-Asiatic) branched off from ancestral Afro-Asiatic.

{Experts are quite devided on this.}

Thought Writes:

No, EXPERTS (linguists) are NOT divided on this issue. Please provide a source for one Afro-Asiatic specialist who disagrees.

{Also why don't you post the full study
A predominantly neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa.
Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, Zerjal T, Fathallah DM, Makrelouf M, Pascali VL, Novelletto A, Tyler-Smith C.
Istituto di Medicina Legale, Universita Cattolica del Sacro Cuore di Roma, Rome, Italy. b_arredi@libero.it
We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model. Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that [B]extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.}

Thought Writes:

I have no problem with that. In fact I have ALLREADY commented on the assertion that E3b and Haplogroup J were introduced during the Neolithic. Nebel et al. have ALLREADY demonstrated that the bulk of Haplogroup J was introduced into Berber and North African populations during the Arab conquest.
{This study is relatively new therfore i do not have access to the whole article which will be freely accesible for reading only in the next 4 month.}

Thought Writes:

I have it right in front of me. I an answer any and all questions you have on it.

{The Eb2 haplotpe could have spread from the ear East into North Africa in the Neolithic.}

Thought Writes:

Do you mean E3b2?

posted 28 November 2004 12:37 PM            

Also U6 is the dominant Upper Paleolithic maternal haplotpye in NW Africa. L3E is more recent and spread to NW Africa from east African in the Neolithic.

I want to see you bring some evidence on the contrary.

Also haplotype J has nothing to do with the topic since it's a European maternal haplotype.

You guys are just fakers. Next time post the whole study with the link attached to it.

posted 28 November 2004 12:38 PM            

quote:

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I have ALREADY commented on the assertion that E3b and Haplogroup J were introduced during the Neolithic. Nebel et al. have ALREADY demonstrated that the bulk of Haplogroup J was introduced into Berber and North African populations during the Arab conquest.

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Orionix only sources aknowledge the introduction of E3b into the Maghreb from East Africa during the Neolithic/Holocene and concurrent with the introduction of Berber language to the region.

posted 28 November 2004 12:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Orionix:
[B]The E3b2 haplotype probably spread from the Near East to North Africa in the Neolithic by Afro-Asiatic speaking pastoralists. The study clearly says that.

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