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Wally Member Posts: 855 |
posted 11 October 2004 04:19 PM
The Kemetian Matriarchy: The matriarchal system of society, whereby descent was through the female line was the basis of the social organization in Ancient Egypt, and indeed throughout the rest of Black Africa.
quote: This system was so much at the core of Kemetian political philosophy that it expresses itself in the legend of Isis (the ancestor-goddess of the Ancient Egyptians) and Osiris (the ancestor-god of the Ancient Egyptians); expressed by their very name/titles: Osiris
Thus it is clear; Osiris is portrayed as the fashioner or creator of political power and inheritance and Isis is political power and inheritance -- Kemetian dialectics... European Revisionism Since evidence of the Kemetian matriarchy is abundant, clear, and emphatic, why do we have statements such as this from Joyce Tyldesley in her book "Ramesses:Egypt's Greatest Pharaoh"; quote: With supreme arrogance the author has simply denied one of the fundamental principles of Kemetian social ideology as practiced across millenniums. To those familiar with this type of arrogant distortion, one would immediately recall a similar statement; "the old notion that the ancient Egyptians belonged to the Negro race is an error that has now been refuted." We are well aware of the reason behind that nonsense but why the equally 'ignorant' denial of the Kemetian matriarchy? Despite the fact that it was forbidden by law for a female royal to marry a foreigner (due to the matriarchy and the rules of descent), if we deny its very existence, we can then have a 'Mitannian' Nefertiti, a 'foreign' Queen Tiye, or 'play games' with the lineage of the Ramessid's dynasty(19th ). While there may have indeed been occasions where Kemetian tradition and laws were violated, it should certainly raise a red flag to any serious student of Kemetian history. [This message has been edited by Wally (edited 11 October 2004).] IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 4740 |
posted 11 October 2004 04:46 PM
quote: Problem is that the Ramesside lineage is not connected to the 18th dyansty lineage of Ahmoside or Thutmoside. 19th dyansty represents a break in the lineage because Horemheb was the one who appointed Rameses I pharoah and thus began the Ramesside line. Don't know about Tiye but her father was possibly foregin,and we know her mother Thuya was an indigenous Upper Egyptian. Neferiti's father Ay was Egyptian,but some historians have doubts about her mother. Both Tiye and Nefertiti were commoners by birth. Neither one was raised up in the royal household.
[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 11 October 2004).] IP: Logged |
supercar Junior Member Posts: |
posted 11 October 2004 05:54 PM
I've heard in some occassions, that the mother of Ramses II was of some foreign ethnic background, possibly Semetic. Rarely, are there any published detailed references to Rameses' mother. But as Ausar pointed out, Rameses II inheritence came through the appointment of his farther, Ramses I. In such intances, a royal queen may not necessarily be of Kemetian birth. We come across such an instance with Cleopatra's mother, unless Cleopatra was of a mixed race. I haven't seen any evidence of that, as of yet. I guess that would be the straightforward answer to the question concerning a royal queen being of foreign birth! ------------------ IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 4274 |
posted 11 October 2004 06:02 PM
quote: I've also noticed that this helps [wst] scholars avoid dealing with the implications of the many 'conspicuously southern Black' (Nubian) queens. If you don't understand that Kemet was a matriarchy then this has no meaning. If you do understand, then the meaning of the association between royal legitimacy and Upper Egyptian-Nubian Queens becomes quite clear. Reading most [wst] scholars it is clear that they either do not understand, or do not want their readers to know. As in the Prophesy of Neferti: Whether this is 'true' prophesy or post facto the question that is begged is,,, how can the son of a Nubian woman restore Egypt's integrity and honor? Why is there a perception (in the prophesy) that said integrity is violated by "Asiatics"? Egyptian history as related by [wst] scholars, makes no sense. You have to read past their dissembling in order to understand any of it. IP: Logged |
Wally Member Posts: 855 |
posted 12 October 2004 01:51 PM
quote: Yes, Ausar, but where's your red flag, man? Horemhab By most accounts, Horemhab was one ruthless, treacherous s.o.b. who can be implicated in (what I suspect is one of the earliest occurrences of a military coup d'etat) the overthrow of the regime of Ikhnaton/Tutankhamen; the possible assassination of Tutankhamen; the betrayal of Ay; the elimination of the legitimate Upper Egyptian 19th dynasty and the establishment of the Lower Egyptian Seti/Ramessid 19th dynasty. -- this guy was something else... However , I rather doubt that he chose a family to begin this new dynasty from the peasantry (fellaheen) or the urban working classes or from the lesser ranking nobility or propertied classes. It is logical to assume that he would have chosen a family with sizable connections wouldn't you say? It usually works that way... Tiye and Nefertiti I ) a) Was her elevation due in part with Amenhotep III's extreme infatuation with her? and... b) How was the law therefore circumvented to make her a Queen-Mother? (her genealogical links to TaSeti, perhaps?) II ) If Nefertiti became the Queen Royal and ultimately the Queen Mother, wouldn't her own mother be required to be at least tenuously related to the royal line? These are anomalies which should be questioned and explored wouldn't you say? IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 4740 |
posted 12 October 2004 03:21 PM
Ramesses came from a a high position in the army . You must remeber that around this time most of the people in Egyptian armies were either Asiatics,Libyans[tamahou],or Nubians. 1. Tiye's father was a overseer of chairoteers at Akhmin in Upper Egypt. Her mother Yuya was an Upper Egyptian women possibly from Waset[modern day Luxor] 2. Women in the pharaoh's harem with the title ornament of the pharaoh could often lead up to high positions. This is why you often had assasination attempts. 3. It's possible that Neferiti had some royal connection back to Sequenen Re Tao,but we do know her mother was possibly foregin.
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Wally Member Posts: 855 |
posted 13 October 2004 01:57 PM
quote: This would be consistent with General Horemhab's military coup...
quote: which brings up an excellent and relevant question from sunstorm2004:
quote: Yuya's being from Upper Egypt (the traditional seat of Kemetian royal legitimacy, re-established after the expulsion of the Hyksos and the establishment of the 18th dynasty) and her possible connection with TaSeti (royalty?) would be a major factor in establishing her own 'legitimacy'
quote: I agree...
quote: If her mother was indeed foreign, excluding, of course, TaSeti, then we have a problem. Was this breaking of both tradition and the law, another aspect of Ikhnaton's "revolution?" IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 4274 |
posted 14 October 2004 08:35 PM
From the new Fletcher book: Search for Nefertiti: Petrie believed Nefertiti was the Egyptian name given to Tadukhepa, the Mitannian princess who arrived in Egypt before Amenhotep III's death.... Others have suggested tha she may have been a daughter of Amenhotep III. Some strongly believe she was descended from Queen Ahmose-Nefertari...Nefertiti was doubtless of the same family as Tiye, who was perhaps her aunt. Perhaps most likely is that Nefertiti was the daughter of Tiy's brrother Ay, whose title 'God's Father' is often thought to mean 'father-in-law of the king'. Certainly the fact that Nefertiti had an Egyptian wet nurse (Ay's wife Ty) must mean that she was raised from birth,or a very young age at an Egyptian court I'm still reading it. There is also iconography of Nefertiti in her various braided hairstyles and Nubian wigs; also iconography showing Nefertiti with double pierced ears, like the mummy she found. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 14 October 2004).] IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 4740 |
posted 14 October 2004 10:32 PM
What does Fletcher say about Mutnodjmet? She is supposed to be the half sister of Neferiti according to some people. IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 4274 |
posted 14 October 2004 11:07 PM
quote: Not much, things like: "Queen Tiye appeared in such a crown, as did Nefertiti's sister Mutondjmet when she herself eventually became queen." She has more to say about Tiye, Yuya and Thuya.... "Although Tiy is usually dismissed as a commoner, it seems unlikely that an unkown could have become Great Royal Wife, some have suggested that Yuya (Tiy's father) was Mutemwia's brother, which would make Tiye her niece. It would explain how Tiye attained great influence. It has even been suggested that Tiy is descendant from Ahomose Nefertari, since her name is a shortened verion of Nefertari. Early Egyptologists believed Yuya and Tuya (Tiy's parents) to be Syrian, but in fact the family came from Akhmim, between Amarna and Thebes." She doesn't make much effort to document her observations, or always say where she gets her info, but, anyway...that's what she says. I'll let you know if I find anything else from her on Mutondjmet. IP: Logged |
Kem-Au Member Posts: 1038 |
posted 15 October 2004 01:18 PM
quote: Wally, here's more evidence for the matriarchal KMT. The father of the wife is called God's Father. Also, this could have something to do with why Ay followed Tut to the throne. Perhaps Horemheb has behind a coup, but the Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt did note that Horemheb was a people's king who made laws that favored the common man, so who knows. IP: Logged |
Horemheb Member Posts: 2582 |
posted 15 October 2004 01:27 PM
It is difficult to tell at this point what realtionship the 19th dynasty had to the 18th. Keep in mind that most kings had multi wives and scores of children. It is very possible that Horemheb and the Ramasides were directly related to the 18th dynasty kings by minor wives. Until DNA gives us a more complete family tree it will be difficult to sort all of that out. IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 4740 |
posted 15 October 2004 02:57 PM
Not very likely that we can preform Dna tests on Horemheb or evey Ay because their mummies have never been identified. It's also unlikely that Horemheb is related to Rameses I and the 18th dyansty because both were millitary officals and not directly tied to the royal court. Do you have any evidence that Horemheb was raised in the royal nursery or even Rameses I?
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Djehuti Member Posts: 1560 |
posted 15 July 2005 06:23 PM
An interesting interpretation on the representation of the royal couple using the portrait of Menkaure and his Queen as an example. http://witcombe.sbc.edu/menkaure/
THE QUEEN'S HUSBAND A common assumption has been that the queen is Menkaure's wife, and that the position she occupies in the sculpture shows that she is subordinate to the pharaoh. Her more relaxed, naturalistic pose, the fact that her left foot does not extend as far forward as Menkaure's, the less rigid position of her arms, her open hands compared to his clenched fists, are believed to indicate her inferior rank within the rigorously hierarchic social organization of Egypt. Her pose has therefore been interpreted as that of passive, dutiful wife standing supportively next to her powerful husband. Especially recently, this interpretation of the queen has been challenged [see Nancy Luomala's article in the BIBLIOGRAPHY]. The queen's status, and that of all Egyptian women, but especially of those in the royal family, has been a matter of some debate. Women in Egypt seem to have enjoyed the same legal and economic rights as men, a situation which the Greeks, writing about the Egyptians, found very strange. Herodotus, writing in the 5th century BCE and who had visited Egypt, lists among their contrary customs that "women buy and sell, the men abide at home and weave" (Book II, 35) [see Herodotus in the BIBLIOGRAPHY]. Diodorus of Sicily, who had visited Egypt some time between 60 and 56 BCE, writes that the Egyptians had a law "permitting men to marry their sisters" and adds that "it was ordained that the queen should have greater power and honour than the king and that among private persons the wife should enjoy authority over her husband" (Book I, 27) [see Diodorus of Sicily in the BIBLIOGRAPHY]. Such notions have contributed to the so-called "heiress" theory which argues that the right to the throne in Ancient Egypt was transmitted through the female line. A man, no matter what his status, be he the eldest son of the previous pharaoh or a commoner, became a pharaoh through his relationship to the queen. The pharaohship was legitimised through marriage to the "heiress" who was often the pharaoh's sister or his half-sister. It has been argued, therefore, that Ancient Egypt was a matrilineal society where power resided in the female line. The queen represented in the statue, therefore, was no mere wife. Her position and gestures should be interpreted not as indicating inferiority and submission, but signalling her legitimization of Menkaure as pharaoh. She is shown in the act of presenting him, indicating to the world that he is the man whom she is identifying and establishing as pharaoh. Her pose, in fact, deliberately imitates that of the goddess Hathor in the triad statues and with whom she is clearly intended to be identified. The statue itself is a representation of this act of confirmation, and perhaps even a record of part of an actual confirmation ceremony. While anthropologists have had few problems with the "heiress" theory, Egyptologists have been troubled by what they see as a lack of supporting evidence. Arguments against matriliny and the existence of an "heiress" are the apparent lack of a title for such women (none of the recorded titles, such as "principal wife," "king's wife," "king's daughter," "king's sister," "king's mother," "god's wife," or "mother of god," "daughter of the god," appears to specifically define the position), and the fact that there is not a "heiress list", an unbroken line of descent of royal women similar to the "king list" for pharaohs (however, it should be noted with respect to the latter that the surviving king lists, such as the Turin Papyrus, were drawn up in much later periods when a patriarchal bias dominated). Some scholars have rejected the theory outright. The issue has become politicized in recent years by feminists who believe that denial of the "heiress" theory and the notion that Ancient Egypt was a matrilineal society are prompted by patriarchal thinking which is unwilling to acknolwedge the possibility that women could have played such a powerful role in a well-established, highly-structured, and long-enduring civilization. Some feminists also use the case of Egyptian matrilinearity to support the argument that patriarchy is a relatively recent phenomenon and that women enjoyed a much higher status and played a much greater role in prehistoric societies. The "heiress" theory was developed partially to explain the phenomenon, noted by Diodorus of Sicily, of brother-sister marriages in Egyptian royal family. This is a sensitive issue because it seems to imply an incestuous relationship. Some scholars believe that this was indeed the case and that royal marriages between brothers and sisters were consummated and children born. Others, however, have argued that the "marriage" was ceremonial and that there is no evidence of sexual relations between the queen and the pharaoh. Certainly part of the problem from our standpoint is a proper understanding of what constituted "marriage" in Ancient Egypt and what was meant by the term "wife", or "husband." In surviving formal documents and texts there is no mention of any religious or legal ceremony by which a man's relationship with a woman was formalised in marriage in the modern sense of cohabitation and sexual relations. In fact, "to marry" seems to have meant little more than "to enter a household." Records show that pharaohs had several "wives" of different standing within the royal bloodline. It would appear to be also the case that an heiress-queen could both be "married" to the pharaoh and also be married and have children with another man, a consort-king. The children of the pharaoh and his wives, and the children of heiress-queen and her consort-king, would all refer to the pharaoh as "father" and the heiress-queen as "mother." Evidence of this is the way that the pharaoh is always the "son" of his predecessor, even though there may be no physical link. I believe the evidence in support of the "heiress" theory outweighs that against it. Once adopted, it can be used to clarify much of the present confusion surrounding royal relationships, inheritance, and pharaonic succession, especially during the period of the Old Kingdom when the great pyramids were built at Giza, and when the statue of Menkaure and his queen was carved. Power in Ancient Egypt descended through the mother's side of the royal family. The queenship was a mortal manifestation of female power and the feminine prototype, while the pharaoh represented the power of the male and the masculine prototype. The roles of the male pharaoh and the female queen were interpreted as one element in a system of complementary dualities. Many Egyptian stories and folktales revolve around the need to reconcile opposites. It was seen as necessary to maintain a balance between the male and the female. Men are more visible in the historical record because they served as the public manifestation of the power of the (female) throne and as the administrative head of the kingdom. An heiress-queen may, or may not, be married to the pharaoh. If she was closely related by blood, her "marriage" to the pharaoh was ceremonial. Occasionally, however, she would "marry" and establish as the new pharaoh a man from outside the royal family, which brought about the founding of a new dynasty and introduced new blood into the royal bloodline. Men in the royal family, though, had certain claims to the throne by right of birth and kinship to the heiress-queen who may be their mother, step-mother, sister, half-sister, or niece. But none of the pharaoh's own children would automatically be his "heir." Inheritance resided in the female progeny of the heiress-queen. MATRILINY IN DYNASTY IV
In order to answer this question it is necessary to reconstruct, as much as it is possible, the female line of descent through the 4th Dynasty. For the most part, I have followed the family relationships laid out by George Reisner (1931) [see BIBLIOGRAPHY], William Stevenson Smith (1955) [see BIBLIOGRAPHY], and Ahmed Fakhry (1959) [see BIBLIOGRAPHY], but have interpreted perceived relationships from a matrilineal perspective. It's a rather complicated history and the following section is dense with names and relationships; you can skip to the end for my conclusion if your not interested in this sort of thing. First, a few words about the chronology and dating of the Dynasty IV. The order of succession of pharaohs in the Old Kingdom has been more or less established using "king lists", compiled mostly in the period of the New Kingdom, of which one of the most important was written on papyrus during the reign of Ramesses II (c. 1301-1234 BCE) and is now in the Turin Museum. The Turin Papyrus provides not only the order of succession but the length of reign, though the latter especially often seems fantastical. While a workable relative chronology can be established, an absolute chronology, the actual dates of a pharaoh's reign, remains imprecise. The problem of dating has been exacerbated by the tendency among Egyptologists over the past twenty or thirty years to down-date earlier chronologies, which effectively lowered the founding of pharaonic Egypt, and the beginning of Dynasty I, to around 2955 or 2920 BCE, with Dynasty IV beginning around 2600 BCE. Since the late 1980s, however, following the analysis of eighty new carbon samples collected from the pyramids, it is now necessary to shift the entire chronology up by approximately 300 years or so. Dynasty I now begins around 3400 BCE (as it had done earlier before the down-dating trend), and Dynasty IV around 2900 BCE. According to the Turin Papyrus, Sneferu [Snofru], the first pharaoh of Dynasty IV and the builder of the pyramids at Dahshur, reigned for 24 years. His successor, Khufu (Cheops), who is believed to have built the first of the great pyramids at Giza around 2570 BCE (now revised to c. 2870 BCE), reigned for 23 years, Khafre (Chephren), the builder of the second pyramid around 2530 BCE (now c. 2830 BCE), reigned for 25 years, and Menkaure, who built the third pyramid around 2500 BCE (now c. 2800 BCE), for 18 years. Dates put forward by different scholars for the statue of Menkaure and his queen currently span a period of 130 years, ranging from as early as c. 2600 to as late as c. 2470 BCE (or now c. 2900 to c. 2770 BCE). Menkaure's heiress-queen, according to my own reconstruction of the female royal line, was probably the great granddaughter of Hetepheres I, the heiress-queen of Sneferu, the first pharaoh of Dynasty IV. Sneferu's parentage is unknown, though it is thought he may have been the son of Queen Meresankh I who may have been related through marriage to the family of Huni, the last pharaoh of Dynasty III. There are no records to show Sneferu was related by blood to the family of Huni. He evidently attained the position of pharaoh through his "marriage" to Hetepheres I, and he was sufficiently unconnected with the royal family of Huni to bring about a change in dynasty. Sneferu's consort-queens bore him numerous sons, among them Kanefer, Khufu, Ankh-haf, and possibly Rahotep (who married Nofret), and several daughters. Meanwhile, Queen Hetepheres I married a consort-king and among their children were the daughters Hetepheres II and Meresankh II. When Sneferu died after 24 years on the throne, it was Hetepheres II, as the new heiress-queen, who "married" Sneferu's son Khufu (Cheops), making him the new pharaoh. Khufu's mother was probably Queen Henutsen. It seems clear from the tombs surrounding Khufu's great pyramid at Giza that other women in the royal family were also recognized as queens - his sisters (other daughters of his own mother), half-sisters (daughters of Sneferu's consort-queens) and, it would seem, even his step-mothers (Sneferu's consort-queens, such as Queen Merytyetes [Meritites] - and all were "married" to him. When Khufu died after 23 years on the throne, Hetepheres II seems to have first "married" Kawab [Kewab], Khufu's son by a consort-queen (not Merytyetes, as has been suggested) and Hetepheres II's half-brother-through-heiress-marriage. However, no record survives of Kawab ever being pharaoh. It seems very probable that he died (possibly even murdered, it has been suggested), at which point Hetepheres II then "married" Radedef (also written as Dedefra), another of Khufu's sons by a different consort-queen, who became pharaoh and reigned for 8 years (according to the Turin Papyrus). In the meantime, Hetepheres II (and not another woman identified as "Hetepheres A") had joined in a consummated marriage with Ankh-haf, who was perhaps the son of Sneferu and a consort-queen. I would suggest that their first-born daughter was Meresankh III (she is also thought, however, to be the daughter of Hetepheres II and her first "husband" Kawab). Meresankh III, as the new heiress-queen, "married" her uncle Khafre (Chephren), a "son" of Khufu and the builder of the second pyramid at Giza. As in the case with his father, Khafre also "married" his "sisters", including Queen Khamerernebty I, one of Khufu's daughters by a consort-queen. At this point, the records used to reconstruct the chronology of succession at this time become unclear and contradictory. Khafre may have been succeeded directly by Menkaure, but there is also the possibility that one, two, or even three pharaohs (Bikheris, Thamphthis, and Seberkheres) may have sat on the throne for an unknown period after Khafre's death. Part of the uncertainty may be due to real problems of rivalry among the consort-queens and their respective sons which may have started with Hetepheres II's second "marriage", following the death of Kawab, to Radedef. Radedef was a minor "son" of Khufu, of lesser rank than Khafre, and who, on assuming the throne, as if in rejection of that established by the Khufu at Giza, started a new royal cemetery at Abu Roash. When Radedef died, rather than making one his sons pharaoh, Hetepheres II's daughter, Meresankh III, "married" her uncle, Khafre, thereby restoring the dynastic line and returning the royal family to Giza. However, the "marriage" did not go uncontested, and Radedef's son, Bikheris, engaged in a struggle for the throne in which he may have been successful, perhaps becoming pharaoh at the death of Khafre. Meresankh III was apparently still alive when Menkaure became pharaoh. Did he become pharaoh through "marriage" with her? Three of Menkaure's queens are buried in small pyramids next to his at Giza, but their names are unknown. Only the name of one of his queens is known, Khamerernebty II, Menkaure's full sister and daughter of Khamerernebty I. Circumstances would suggest that she was only a consort-queen, and not the queen of the female line. In its unfinished state, the statue of Menkaure and his queen lacks any identifying inscriptions. The woman standing next to Menkaure has been identified as Khamerernebty II, but that is because hers is the only name we know among Menkaure's queens. According to the argument laid out above, it seems more likely that she is, in fact, Meresankh III. An inscription over the door of Meresankh's tomb (discovered in 1927) records that she died in the first year of a unnamed pharaoh and was buried nine months later. It has been argued that the unnamed pharaoh was Menkaure's successor, Shepseskaf. From an examination of Menkaure's skeleton, it has been estimated that she died when she was a little over 50 years old. According to one reconstruction of the chronology of Dynasty IV, Menkaure was pharaoh for 18 years. Although carved late in Menkaure's reign, in preparation for his tomb complex, the statue now in Boston was perhaps conceived as representing a moment at the beginning of his pharaohship, when his claim was being legitimized or confirmed or established by the woman standing next to him. At that point in time, Meresankh III would have been in her early thirties, which looks about right for the woman in the statue. [This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 16 July 2005).] IP: Logged |
Djehuti Member Posts: 1560 |
posted 16 July 2005 01:59 AM
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Super car Member Posts: 1726 |
posted 16 July 2005 03:51 AM
quote: A weak standpoint, considering the following, which have been noted: Women in Egypt The Egyptian woman enjoyed the same legal and economic rights as the Egyptian man, and the proof of this is reflected in Egyptian art and historical inscriptions. This is not to say that Egypt was an equal society. It was not. Legal distinctions in Egypt were based much more upon differences in the social classes, rather than differences in gender. Rights and privileges were not uniform from one class to another, but within the given classes, and equal economic and legal rights were accorded to both men and women.
The Egyptian woman's rights extended to all the legally defined areas of society. From the bulk of the legal documents, we know that women could manage and dispose of private property, including: land, portable goods, servants, slaves, livestock, and money (when it existed), as well as financial instruments (i.e., endowments and annuities). A woman could administer all her property independently and according to her free will… Under Egyptian property law, a woman had claim to one-third of all the community property in her marriage, i.e. the property which accrued to her husband and her only after they were married. When a woman brought her own private property to a marriage (e.g., as a dowry), this apparently remained hers, although the husband often had the free use of it. However, in the event of divorce her property had to be returned to her, in addition to any divorce settlement that might be stipulated in the original marriage contract. A wife was entitled to inherit one-third of that community property on the death of her husband, while the other two-thirds was divided among the children, followed up by the brothers and sisters of the deceased. To circumvent this possibility and to enable his wife to receive either a larger part of the share, or to allow her to dispose of all the property, a husband could do several things:
One papyrus tells us how a childless woman, who after she inherited her husband's estate, raised the three illegitimate children who were born to him and their female household slave (such liaisons were fairly common in the Egyptian household and seem to have borne no social stigma). She then married the eldest illegitimate step-daughter to her younger brother, whom she adopted as her son, that they might receive the entire inheritance. Source: Courtesy of Saxakali, Women in Ancient Egypt Posted earlier here: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001524.html Also...
Posted earlier here: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001457.html IP: Logged |
Djehuti Member Posts: 1560 |
posted 16 July 2005 12:39 PM
Supercar, did you read the rest of it? It basically is suggesting that the statue represents the royal woman presenting her husband as the new pharaoh, by fact that it is her husband! IP: Logged |
Super car Member Posts: 1726 |
posted 16 July 2005 05:08 PM
quote: Of course I read it; what has that do to with statement I was replying to? IP: Logged |
Djehuti Member Posts: 1560 |
posted 16 July 2005 09:08 PM
any other replies to this finding?.. IP: Logged |
Super car Member Posts: 1726 |
posted 19 July 2005 08:21 PM
quote: Well, aside from the author's rather restricted familiarity with marraige in Ancient Egypt, I don't see anything wrong with the claims about the "heiress-queen", and that some of these queens may actually have had their own "intimate" male partners outside the royal marraige, while the the Pharaoh had intimate relationships with wives, other than the "heiress". I have always questioned claims about 'incest' - never quite bought into that. IP: Logged |
Djehuti Member Posts: 1560 |
posted 09 August 2005 01:24 PM
I know many of you guys have a list of mainstream scholars who agree with the so-called "Afrocentric" premise. Well here is another one to add: Barbara S. Lesko is a professor and researcher on ancient Egypt and the Near-East and her specialty is on women who lived in those societies. She has written several books on the topic. This is one of them:
The book gives a fascinating layout on the history of goddess figures in Egypt from their prehistoric origins all throughout dynastic times and the late period with the beginning of Christianity. Here are excerpts. Out of Africa There is much evidence from ancient Egypt contradicting the opinion commonly held by historians that all women of all earlier cultures were relegated to the private sphere. In pharaonic times Egyptian women were regularly called up to do national service, as were men. In religious life women were active participants in the cult, serving in many ranks of the clerical hierarchy, and certainly did not require a male to mediate between them and a deity. Similarly, Egyptian women were independent legal persons and did not need a male cosignatory or legal guardian. They were free to earn wages and make purchases in the marketplace. Ancient Egyptian women owned and had complete control over both movable and immovable property such as real estate. This right could not be claimed by women in some parts of the United States as late as the 1960s. The Primeval Cow Goddess Although Baumgartel believed the Badarian conical-bottomed figurines with raised arms were images of humans, not dieties, she saw the image of a bovine fertility goddess in some of the pottery of the succeeding Upper Egyptian cultural phase (ca. 4000 B.C.), the Amratian/Naqada I culture. There is a vase dating from the end of Naqada I "on the exterior of which are represented in relief a human head flanked by two cow's horns and a pair of arms holding the breasts which descend from the rim of the vase behind the head." Other vases from the period are known which also show arms holding breasts. Such artifacts have been used to argue for a maternal or fertility goddess in the prehistoric period. In my opinion, this concept would also fit in with the flora- and fauna-engraved female figurines described above. [This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 20 September 2005).] IP: Logged |
Djehuti Member Posts: 1560 |
posted 10 August 2005 10:02 AM
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ausar Moderator Posts: 4740 |
posted 10 August 2005 02:10 PM
Never read Barbara Lesko's book but I have seen some of her studies on Egyptology. The fertility dance that she describes can be seen on artifacts found from the Naqada culture in Upper Egypt. This dance was often preformed by priestess of Het-Hor[Hathor] along with the shaking of the sistra. IP: Logged |
Djehuti Member Posts: 1560 |
posted 04 September 2005 01:03 PM
Notice how Lesko takes the more common sense approach in accepting Egypt as being African and studying Egyptian culture from that perspective. Notice how she criticizes those scholars don't take such an approach but instead create all sorts of problems by denying the obvious and undeniable. ... [This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 04 September 2005).] IP: Logged |
Djehuti Member Posts: 1560 |
posted 04 September 2005 03:51 PM
Donald Redford, a modern Canadian Egyptologist. . . . "believes Hatshepsut's attainment of the throne represents the final attempt in the Eighteenth Dynasty to establish a strong matrairchate in Egypt. He cites the unusual importance of earlier queens in this period --Tetisheri, Ahhotep I, Ahmose-Nefertari--as evidence of such a tendency, and here suggest that the influences for such a matriarchally determined order of succession might have come from Nubia. The possibility that the rulers of the Seventeenth Dynasty were themselves at least part Nubian". James E. Harris, Kent R. Weeks, X-raying the Pharaohs, 1973, p. 135 So again enters the question, exactly what are the ethnic differences between Egyptians and Nubians? Language could be one, but both peoples inhabited the same area of the Nile Valley and both have similar cultures. IP: Logged |
Djehuti Member Posts: 1560 |
posted 09 September 2005 07:47 PM
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