posted 12 May 2004 11:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Said,are you aware of a Chadic linguist named Mohammed Garba? He demonstrates the similarity with Chadic from the vulture glyph in Kemetian language.

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Yes I am aware of him. I have many studies and papers on my hard drive detailing the relationship of Chadic to ancient Egyptian. Ancient Egyptian is still closer to languages spoken exclusively in Africa than those outside of Africa.

posted 12 May 2004 11:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Just read the paper. Great paper except the fact that he erroneously expouses false history saying that the pyramid were built by slaves. Certainly he is correct is asserting that Egyptians committed great humn rights abuses and had a uneven soceity where the elite was more educated than the impoverished. But no evidence has ever been found linking the construction of the pyramids to slavery or slaves. If anything most of the people who constructred temples,pyramids or other building projects were off season farmers and soliders.

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I agree, there has never been any proof that slaves built pyramids in ancient Egypt. The science used and the fact that building of pyramids cannot even be duplicated now should be proof enough.

posted 13 May 2004 07:55 PM            

The article is very timely as well as a recent discussion here had prompted me to investigate the frequently presented proof of word meaning and connection to Egyptian with the language Wolof. I too had difficulty in finding convincing evidence of words claimed to show an AE connection and hence support for the suggested meaning of those words between Wolof and Egyptian.

In particular I was looking for support, of which almost all advocates for the word Kemmau and its supposed root Kem (Black), use Wolof as support for its meaning and connection to the rest of Africa. Clearly this is due to Diops work, which is in review here in this artical.

In connection to the word Kem or the Word for black I found this.

Wolof

The word for “to be black” in Wolf is “Nyool, or Nuul”, depending on the translation. Nuul a nuul means very very black.

To say “Im Black and pretty”, you would say “dama jul ak am taar”. Not anywere close to what is touted on the net, as an assosiation to Egyptian

I could not find one referente to the word Wolof, Khem ="burnt to black." Which is often posted on web pages as the Wolof equivilent of the egyptian root word Kem.

I did however find the word Keem means “burnt rice”.

I have come to my own conclusions as to the meaning of Kmemu and related words and will post when i can back what I have tos ay. Hopfully this will be soon.

I agree he may have been incorrect about the slaves, but his final statement is exceptional and should be read by those currently discussing in the Egypt in Africa thread.

My refences material is below.
http://www.africanculture.dk/gambia/ftp/wollof.pdf http://www.africanculture.dk/gambia/ftp/wolfgram.pdf

posted 13 May 2004 09:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
Excellent post. The article was extreemly interesting to me in that he explores with some fantastic examples the ease in which word association can be made between languages.

The article is very timely as well as a recent discussion here had prompted me to investigate the frequently presented proof of word meaning and connection to Egyptian with the language Wolof. I too had difficulty in finding convincing evidence of words claimed to show an AE connection and hence support for the suggested meaning of those words between Wolof and Egyptian.

In particular I was looking for support, of which almost all advocates for the word Kemmau and its supposed root Kem (Black), use Wolof as support for its meaning and connection to the rest of Africa. Clearly this is due to Diops work, which is in review here in this artical.

In connection to the word Kem or the Word for black I found this.

Wolof

The word for “to be black” in Wolf is “Nyool, or Nuul”, depending on the translation. Nuul a nuul means very very black.

To say “Im Black and pretty”, you would say “dama jul ak am taar”. Not anywere close to what is touted on the net, as an assosiation to Egyptian

I could not find one referente to the word Wolof, Khem ="burnt to black." Which is often posted on web pages as the Wolof equivilent of the egyptian root word Kem.

I did however find the word Keem means “burnt rice”.

I have come to my own conclusions as to the meaning of Kmemu and related words and will post when i can back what I have tos ay. Hopfully this will be soon.

I agree he may have been incorrect about the slaves, but his final statement is exceptional and should be read by those currently discussing in the Egypt in Africa thread.

My refences material is below.
http://www.africanculture.dk/gambia/ftp/wollof.pdf http://www.africanculture.dk/gambia/ftp/wolfgram.pdf

Ozzy

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Thought Writes:

posted 15 May 2004 02:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Given the extensive interaction between the Wolof and the Berber and Tucklor groups north of the Zenaga River I imagine it would be difficult to differentiate between the AE loan words and the Berber loan words.

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I thimk he actualy showed it is not hard, as its not just the words but the language structure that is different. borrwing of words is not as simple as replacing one word or adopting one word for a description or object. If a word is adopted then the structure of the language would dictate its variences, (Plurals, gender etc). And if not just simple borrowing of words and infact dirrectly related the structure becomes even more important in suporting the connection. Its clear from this articals many many examples that Diops connections do not follow these priciples.

However I did find his Chadic examples very convincing.

I would like to read more of his work if anyone has seen any.

Ozzy

posted 15 May 2004 03:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozzy:
I thimk he actualy showed it is not hard, as its not just the words but the language structure that is different. borrwing of words is not as simple as replacing one word or adopting one word for a description or object. If a word is adopted then the structure of the language would dictate its variences, (Plurals, gender etc). And if not just simple borrowing of words and infact dirrectly related the structure becomes even more important in suporting the connection. Its clear from this articals many many examples that Diops connections do not follow these priciples.

However I did find his Chadic examples very convincing.

I would like to read more of his work if anyone has seen any.

Ozzy

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Thought Writes:

posted 15 May 2004 07:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

One of the problems across the board is the fact that there are not enough African and pan-African scholars researching these issues. With every interaction there is mutual exchange. If Berber loan words can be found in Wolof I have to assume that Wolof words can be found in Berber tongues. Has there been a solid research paper that has evaluated the connections between the Tuareg language and the Songhai? How about Zenaga and Wolof? What about the Berber tongue spoken in the Siwa oasis and Zenaga? If there are please point me in the right direction? If there are none or very few then we have to say that the general thesis Diop proposed is no where near a closed book. At any rate, language tells us only PART of the story as it relates to human relationships and interactions.

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He didnt say that diop was wrong in trying to connect the African languages, in fact he maintains the oposite, he said that he believes that all African languages are related.

He did however show that Diops methods were flawed and the relationship that Diop was trying to show was infact not the case. That connection he was trying to show was a direct connection to Ancient Egyptian, and in doing so prove Egypts connection to Africa.

He pointed out that research needs to be done with the data taking one were it leads, by this he followed on to say that he believed although Diop had all good intentions and was by no means wrong in his usumption that African languages including Egyptian are related in some way, But Diop was "looking" for those connections to Wolof and there fore made many fundimental mistakes, instead of letting his research take him were it lead.

I think he showed clearly that the Egyptian Wolof direct connection was not there, and showed the connection although breif of many other languages was there.

I feel if you are to argue this then one should rebut his article.

And I agree that it would be benificial for more African scholars, to be researching these topics, but why does this make a difference to this type of article.?

Lastly the statment "With every interaction there is mutual exchange", is not correct, Culturaly speeking it has been clear that domination is often the moving force in intorducing language change, not simply interaction.

Another often forgoten or ignored impact on language influences are the women. As it is in all cultures a natural need to avoid interbreading forces men to look outsied their tribe and sometimes far outside their areas, for mates, when this happens when comming into contact differnet language groups, the women often have an great influence on the tribal language as they are the ones left with the children. Over a short period of time if a number of mates are taken from the same area the impact on the language can be great and ireversable. I know this has nothing to do with the artical but it shows the complexities of language change as apposed to a linier thinking of simple interaction and mutual exchange. Its by no means that simple.

In any case I can see many reasons why and were there would not be any mutual exchange of language and how we would not always see loan words evenly exchanged.

Ozzy

posted 15 May 2004 08:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
I'm feeling a little lazy. Can someone please sum the articles up for me? Do they compare sentence structure?

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Kem I coulnt begin to sum the article up but he is among other things showing how easy it is to find and make word assosiations and yes he is comparing sectence structure. RE: He says that for laguage comparisments their needs to be comparitive structure to exist,RE: if someone was to try to connect English and Spanish as comming from the same language group, not only would one need to find simular words of which their are many, but also consider the differences in structure like, English verbs saty constant "open", we say I open, you open, we open , they open, the verb says constant, were as in spanish the word for open is "abrir" which changes from, yo abro, tu abres, nosotros abrimos, vosotros abris. The root word changes, then it also changes further depending on present tence, future, etc. He points out a simular difference between Wolof and AE. Then comes the word placement etc. He points out this as well. There may be and are many simular words in English and Spanish but this does not say that one is a direct evolution of the other.

The many other aspects of language structure will show the connections and the structure of the African language family tree. This is what I feel he is getting at.

Ozzy

posted 15 May 2004 09:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozzy:
And I agree that it would be benificial for more African scholars, to be researching these topics, but why does this make a difference to this type of article.?

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Thought Writes:

posted 15 May 2004 09:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozzy:

In any case I can see many reasons why and were there would not be any mutual exchange of language and how we would not always see loan words evenly exchanged.

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Thought Writes:

posted 18 May 2004 12:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozzy:
Kem I coulnt begin to sum the article up but he is among other things showing how easy it is to find and make word assosiations and yes he is comparing sectence structure. RE: He says that for laguage comparisments their needs to be comparitive structure to exist,RE: if someone was to try to connect English and Spanish as comming from the same language group, not only would one need to find simular words of which their are many, but also consider the differences in structure like, English verbs saty constant "open", we say I open, you open, we open , they open, the verb says constant, were as in spanish the word for open is "abrir" which changes from, yo abro, tu abres, nosotros abrimos, vosotros abris. The root word changes, then it also changes further depending on present tence, future, etc. He points out a simular difference between Wolof and AE. Then comes the word placement etc. He points out this as well. There may be and are many simular words in English and Spanish but this does not say that one is a direct evolution of the other.

The many other aspects of language structure will show the connections and the structure of the African language family tree. This is what I feel he is getting at.

Ozzy

[This message has been edited by Ozzy (edited 15 May 2004).]

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posted 19 May 2004 04:28 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Given the extensive interaction between the Wolof and the Berber and Tucklor groups north of the Zenaga River I imagine it would be difficult to differentiate between the AE loan words and the Berber loan words.

---

I don't this makes much of a difference Thought, honestly. Swahili is regarded linguistically as a Bantu langugae despite that it has Arabic lone words. Swahili is still regarded as distant from Arabic. I think the argument that Chadic is closer to ancient Egyptian is far batter to argue because there are significant correlations between the two, not conincidental relationships.

The author of that paper isn't saying Wolof and ancient Egyptian aren't related. he's just saying the methods used by Diop to demonstrate a relationship between two falls short of a showing a close relationship.

posted 19 May 2004 10:26 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
I don't this makes much of a difference Thought, honestly. Swahili is regarded linguistically as a Bantu langugae despite that it has Arabic lone words. Swahili is still regarded as distant from Arabic. I think the argument that Chadic is closer to ancient Egyptian is far batter to argue because there are significant correlations between the two, not conincidental relationships.

The author of that paper isn't saying Wolof and ancient Egyptian aren't related. he's just saying the methods used by Diop to demonstrate a relationship between two falls short of a showing a close relationship.

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Thought Writes:

posted 20 May 2004 04:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/schuh/Papers/language_and_history.pdf

This paper here is very interesting. It goes into detail a great bit about African languages, but what I found interesting is that it broke down and went in depth about Diop's proposed relationship between Wolof and Ancient Egyptian. In contrast it demonstrated a definite relationship between ancient Egyptian and Chadic. Read through and hopefully provide some feedback.

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There is one word to describe this paper - obfuscation.
The relationship between Pharaonic Egyptian and Wolof is simple to demonstrate:
EGYPTIAN:Bu nafret su em bu bon, "a state of good has become a state of evil"
WOLOF :Bu rafet mel ni bu bon, "a state of good has become a state of evil"

EGYPTIAN:mer on ef, "he loved"
WOLOF :maar on ef, "he loved passionately"

EGYPTIAN:mer on es, "she loved"
WOLOF :maar on es, "she loved passionately"

EGYPTIAN:mer on sen, "they loved"
WOLOF :maar on sen, "they loved passionately"

For a more detailed analysis see my:
http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/egypt_lang.html

P.S.:
a)Any Wolof speaking individual will tell you that the word "khem" means "burnt to black."

posted 20 May 2004 06:33 PM            

Mar – to lick. Or to be thursty

Naar – A Moor.

Esen – to scratch or to itch.

Again one of my resources is below.

http://www.africanculture.dk/gambia/ftp/wollof.pdf
http://www.africanculture.dk/gambia/ftp/wolfgram.pdf

posted 23 May 2004 07:35 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I wonder how the Berber language was dispersed from the Nile region to NW Africa completly passing EVERY region of the Western Sahara during the neolithic period? Very odd, if true.

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I think the Berber language originated in East Africa as demonstarted by the presence of Somali Y chromosones found in North Africans. Of course its tricky science to try to connect the spread of language through genes, but archaeology may help a bit in this respect. I really don't have an answer, but my point is that AE and Wolof may share a relationship, but it isn't a close relationship. Wolof belongs to the West Atlantic Branch of the Niger-Congo language family and is more related to Serer, Fulfide(Fulani), and Tukulor. Greenberg especially noted this relationship when he was debunking Meinhoff's "Hamitic" classification of the Fulani. But there is something worth noting about the Fulani, they stretch from west Africa all the way into the Eastern Sudan.

posted 23 May 2004 07:38 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:
There is one word to describe this paper - obfuscation.
The relationship between Pharaonic Egyptian and Wolof is simple to demonstrate:
EGYPTIAN:Bu nafret su em bu bon, "a state of good has become a state of evil"
WOLOF :Bu rafet mel ni bu bon, "a state of good has become a state of evil"

EGYPTIAN:mer on ef, "he loved"
WOLOF :maar on ef, "he loved passionately"

EGYPTIAN:mer on es, "she loved"
WOLOF :maar on es, "she loved passionately"

EGYPTIAN:mer on sen, "they loved"
WOLOF :maar on sen, "they loved passionately"

For a more detailed analysis see my:
http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/egypt_lang.html

P.S.:
a)Any Wolof speaking individual will tell you that the word "khem" means "burnt to black."

b)Kem means "black" in modern day Coptic also, there is no alternative meaning for this word.

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posted 23 May 2004 04:48 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
Wally, please direct me to a dictionary of Wollof that lists Khem as burnt to black. And I can not find an official dictionary that lists any words you have used here or on your site. The closest I could come was these.

Mar – to lick. Or to be thursty

Naar – A Moor.

Esen – to scratch or to itch.

Again one of my resources is below.

http://www.africanculture.dk/gambia/ftp/wollof.pdf
http://www.africanculture.dk/gambia/ftp/wolfgram.pdf

Im happy to be corrected if you can supply a reasonable resource.

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The Peace Corps compiled dictionary is helpful but not exhaustive. The most authoritative interpretation of the word "khem" or "maar" would of course be a Wolof.
You may wish to try:
http://www.wolofonline.com/[/URL]
Either that or write to a Senegal or Gambian embassy. I'm sure they would be helpful
in explaining these words to you.

posted 23 May 2004 04:56 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by S.Mohammad:

Wally, if you look closer than just the similar vocabulary and look at others things that constitute a relationship between languages you will see than ancient Egyptian is closer to Chadic than Wolof. Wolof and Chadic speakers are sub-Saharan and very Negroid so saying a greater relationship exists between Chadic and AE(they're both classed under the Afrasian language family) doesn't in anyway refute the notion that AE was and is an African language.

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posted 24 May 2004 02:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
Wally, please direct me to a dictionary of Wollof that lists Khem as burnt to black. And I can not find an official dictionary that lists any words you have used here or on your site. The closest I could come was these.

Mar – to lick. Or to be thursty

Naar – A Moor.

Esen – to scratch or to itch.

Again one of my resources is below.

http://www.africanculture.dk/gambia/ftp/wollof.pdf
http://www.africanculture.dk/gambia/ftp/wolfgram.pdf

Im happy to be corrected if you can supply a reasonable resource.

---

The Peace Corps compiled dictionary is helpful but not exhaustive. The most authoritative interpretation of the word "khem" or "maar" would of course be a Wolof.
You may wish to try: http://www.wolofonline.com/
Either that or write to a Senegal or Gambian embassy. I'm sure they would be helpful
in explaining these words to you.

Also, a good reference for Coptic Egyptian: http://www.mycopticchurch.com/coptic/lexicon.asp
Try entering <black> <egypt> for example.

The following excert is from the website: http://www.africamaat.com (it's in French) - keep in mind that the Egyptian hieroglyphs for km and kmt includes the piece of burnt charcoal as the primary symbol.

> the exact translation of this C-W communication requires the recourse to African tradition . Indeed, the "black" concept is related to the charcoal, solid residue of carbonization of wood (towards 300/400 degrees Celsius) or with coal even as a solid combustible material of black color and vegetable origin is very widespread in Africa with the same significance and the same concrete form.

Egyptian pharaonic : km, "black",

Copte (Egyptian vocalized): Kamè, kami, kémi, kèm, kam, black coal,

Wolof (Senegal): khem, black, to carbonize by excess of cooking,

Bambara (Mali): Kami, braises, lit coal,

Mbochi (Congo): i-kamà, to carbonize, reduce out of coal,

Mossi/More (Burkina faso): kim, to burn.

posted 24 May 2004 05:09 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Most contemporary linguistic seem to feel that imazghen[Berber] languages spread from the Lower Nile and isolated from other Afro-Asiatic speakers.

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I found this interesting article about this subject:

The "Berber" script has a very interesting story behind it. Ancient Berber is thought to have sprung off the Punic script roughly around the 6th century BC. It was used throughout North Africa until the 3rd century AD. Strangely though, the inscriptions remain unread, as linguists cannot link the written language to any of the dozen modern Berber languages spoken in North Africa. However, it is widely accepted by scholars that it was a Berber language given the continuity of the population.
http://www.ancientscripts.com/berber.html

In this respect, although it doesn't really question the Berber language and where it came from, it is interesting to notice that both the Berber script and Meriotic Script remain unread. In the case of Berber script being unread I don't think scholars and linguists have given it a chance because they've only compared to other KNOWN Berber languages and made the assumption that it was written in Berber. i this assumption is made in order to avoid possibly connecting this unread language to other African populations If this was the case, this unread language would show at least some kind of relationship to the other Berber languages. It could be a lost Semitic language, since the Berber script is thought to have been derived from the Punic Script.

posted 24 May 2004 10:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Why is it that the Tuareg preserve this script and not people like the Kaybele or any other Imazghen group? Linguist think the Merotic script might be related to the Beja people.

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Thought Writes:

posted 25 May 2004 01:48 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

How do the Garamantes fit into all of this?

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Well, I havemy own theories for this. Both those unread languages could be offshoots of proto-Afrasian.

You brought up an xcellent point about the Garamantes as well as ausar mentioning why do the Tuareg still write in this ancient Berber script. I think this Berber script spread from south to North. The Garamantes could be a possible people who spread it although Nina from Richardpoe.com tries to claim them as Berbers, something they never identified themselves as. Once the meriotic and this unread language are fully understood it is my guess that they will both unlock the key to the spread of Afrasian languages from the region in Sudan to points North, south, east, and west. I have the strange sense that both the unread language written in Berber and meriotic are related.

posted 25 May 2004 11:20 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Garamantes are Nilo-Saharan people relaed to the Tibbu. The fact some people connect them to Berber is pure conjecture based on the fact Tuategs still write with the Libyo-Berber script . To related them to Berbers is not serious due to the fact that Berber used in Greco-Roman times were not a ethnicity. You have various tribes in northern Africa that were hetrogenous that the Romans called. Notice also that the Garamantes are from Fezzan and not from anywhere along the coast like Algeria or Morocco.

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Exactly, Garamantes are a Nilo-Saharan speaking people whose modern descendants may very well be the Tibbu, Teda, and even the Kanuri. Maybe even the Haratin too. Nina mis-identified them as Berbers for the fact that Herodotus mentions them as one of the peoples of Libya, therefore she automatically assumes them to be Berber, as if ALL North Africans are ancestrally Berbers.

posted 25 May 2004 01:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Some recent DNA studies identify them as Berbers as well. Combining their origins in Libya and some DNA analysis to confirm means they probably are from a berber or mixed Berber group.

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What "DNA" studies have identified Garamantes, Teda, Tibbu, and Kanuri as Berbers? Please don't make anymore trolling strawman posts without posting studies. None of these groups are Berbers, ethno-linguistically speaking.

posted 25 May 2004 02:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
But they are genetically, check Cavalli Sforza. Mexican and Spanish population both speak spanish but they are not genetically the same. It is dangerous to hang your hat on language.

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If they are the same and you have the studies which specifically state that Garamantes, Kanuri, Teda, Tibbu, and Haratin are genetically "Berbers"(not possible, nothing can be genetically Berber) then post it, don't talk about it.

posted 25 May 2004 05:05 PM            

I believe the ancestors of the modern Berbers are the Metcha-Arbi,Caspsians,and possibly some other groups that appeated in later times in Libya that displaced the original population. The ancient definition of Libya is not the same as the modern nation of Libya.

posted 25 May 2004 06:04 PM            

In my reading it seemed to be clear that their was some connection with many African Languages to the word Kem, but not connecting to the word Black, which most of the languages had a specific word for, the connection was to burnt, to say anything regarding the color of a thing or indead skin was not expressed with any resemblance to any dirivitive of "Kem".

Egyptian in this case seemed to be the odd one out. Could it be that current translations of Egyptian is the one incorrect?

As you can see by Wallys examples all his examples show the kem words as being used for descriptions of burnt or simular.

In regards to the AE version, if you can supply me with a reason why when in the word kem, "burnt stick and croc tail", KM, looses the burnt stick in your examples of extended kem words like kemau Kemit, Kemet etc. The significance of the word =KM loses it meaning in the extended words when the burnt stick is removed.

I have little to support my view as yet but, Im not even sure that the words Kemit, Kemau etc are correctly translated, as they do not contain the total of the original KM Hieroglyph.

If anyone has an explanation for this I would be greatfull.

Also, Most of these words seem to be translated from left to right RE: Kemau. Black people, as apossed to right to left which AE was writen.

Ozzy

posted 25 May 2004 06:40 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozzy:
Back on the subject of Wolof, In every resource I can get my hands on I was unable to find support for the words Khem as Wally has on his site and posted here other than the keem word which means burnt rice, which I posted earlier. I have emailed three Senegal government departments for an official responce.

In my reading it seemed to be clear that their was some connection with many African Languages to the word Kem, but not connecting to the word Black, which most of the languages had a specific word for, the connection was to burnt, to say anything regarding the color of a thing or indead skin was not expressed with any resemblance to any dirivitive of "Kem".

Egyptian in this case seemed to be the odd one out. Could it be that current translations of Egyptian is the one incorrect?

As you can see by Wallys examples all his examples show the kem words as being used for descriptions of burnt or simular.

In regards to the AE version, if you can supply me with a reason why when in the word kem, "burnt stick and croc tail", KM, looses the burnt stick in your examples of extended kem words like kemau Kemit, Kemet etc. The significance of the word =KM loses it meaning in the extended words when the burnt stick is removed.

I have little to support my view as yet but, Im not even sure that the words Kemit, Kemau etc are correctly translated, as they do not contain the total of the original KM Hieroglyph.

If anyone has an explanation for this I would be greatfull.

Also, Most of these words seem to be translated from left to right RE: Kemau. Black people, as apossed to right to left which AE was writen.

Ozzy

---

I think its wise enough to conclude that there is no evidence for a very close relationship between Wolof and AE, despite Diop's sincere effort. I just don't see one, even if the words for black and or burnt do match up. I think people should do their own research before quoting others as evidence, as in Wally's case. I don't the validity in most of whats on his page, but as far as the linguistic evidence goes for Wolof and AE, the evidence is meager at best.

posted 25 May 2004 08:29 PM            

This aside, there were a couple of statements posted that simply are not true.

1. Ozzy: "Also, Most of these words seem to be translated from left to right RE: Kemau. Black people, as apossed to right to left which AE was writen."

AE could be written in any direction, even up and down:
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/writing.htm

2. Ozzy: "In regards to the AE version, if you can supply me with a reason why when in the word kem, "burnt stick and croc tail", KM, looses the burnt stick in your examples of extended kem words like kemau Kemit, Kemet etc. The significance of the word =KM loses it meaning in the extended words when the burnt stick is removed."

posted 25 May 2004 10:15 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
I believe the ancestors of the modern Berbers are the Metcha-Arbi,Caspsians,and possibly some other groups that appeated in later times in Libya that displaced the original population. The ancient definition of Libya is not the same as the modern nation of Libya.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 25 May 2004 10:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
Back on the subject of Wolof...

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Thought Writes:

posted 26 May 2004 12:45 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I do not believe that Wolof is as close to AE as Coptic or Hausa linguistically. However, in attempting to reconstruct relationships we should factor in a number of variables including genetics, anthropology and history. Wolof is a Niger-Kordofanian language, but are the Wolof REALLY closer to an Akan speaker than a AE on a genetic basis?

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Thats another discussion, but in order to assess that relationship one must look at Wolof's closest relatives lignuistically also(Fulani, Serer, Tukulor) to assess and Joseph Greenberg concluded that Fulfide(language of the Fulani) was not Afrasian and Wolof and Fulfide are in the same west Atlantic Branch of Niger-Congo. I believe the Fula may have had more extensive contact with Afrasians than Wolof so I think the matter is settled. If AE and Wolof share any type of relationship its very distant at best.

posted 26 May 2004 01:49 PM            

Sentence structure:
"My mother"
Mi madre -- Spanish
Minha mae -- Portuguese
La mia madre -- Italian

"Come to my house"
Venido a mi casa -- Spanish
Vindo a minha casa -- Portuguese
Venuto alla mia casa -- Italian

Word Comparisons:
"Sky"
Cielo -- Spanish
Ceu -- Portuguese
Cielo -- Italian

Etc:

It's obvious that just from these few examples, these three languages belong to the same linguistic family. They are labeled Latin or Romance languages.

Alas, poor Africa is stuck with dubious terms such as "AfroAsiatic," "Niger-etc."

As the Ancient Egyptians would say "Bw nfrt su m bw bn" - "A state of beauty has become a state of evil" or the modern Wolof "Bw rft mel ni bw bn" - the same...

posted 26 May 2004 10:16 PM            

Also, the author made the point that there were sounds present in AE that were not found in Wolof. This would make more sense if any among us had actually heard an AE speak. How do we know a sound existed in AE but not Wolof?

posted 26 May 2004 10:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
I believe the Fula may have had more extensive contact with Afrasians than Wolof so I think the matter is settled.

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Thought Writes:

posted 26 May 2004 10:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
The dark skinned Tunisan people in Djerba Island have genetic frequencies that are like those in Eastern Africa....Siwi don't look like other Berber populations in Magreb but are probabaly closer to Eastern Africans in phenotype.[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 25 May 2004).]

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Thought Writes:

It would be interesting to compare the genetic relationship between Tuareg, Teda, Kanuri, Black Tunisians from Gerba Island. I believe these Blacks could be the remnant of the original Berbers that brought the tongue to the Maghreb.
Has anyone examined and compared the Garamante pyramids and the Merotic Pyramids?