posted 03 June 2004 01:50 PM            

quote:

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Obvious you have done no research on Mitochondrial DNA, which traced the ancestry of all homo sapiens to Black Africans, long before the 160,000 year old skull was even found

---

I hate to burst people's bubble but the first hominid on this planet we have no idea what race nor what this hominid might have looked at. You know hominids are not fully developed human beings,and so claiming this is so does not mean anything.

Many migrations came out of Africa,and depending if you believe in assorted theories thee is always conjecture. Everything from the Aquatic ape hypothesis down to multi-ragional theory that favors our development seperately in different continents.

The oldest people on the globe are the Khoisan who are probabaly the ancestors of us all. Khoisan and Twa people[pgmys]are every body's distant ancestor.

Mtdna passes alongside the female line and passed upon offpsring through the mother and can be tested on any individual.

quote:

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So all of the "worlds" populations can be traced back to Africa, because as I stated before, African genes are the MOST divergent. Africans have more dominant genes, and the Europeans are the most recessive.I think its you that have the limited understanding.

---

You are correct that some traits of a person is recessive,but these recessive traits might show up in later generation if both the of the parents recombines. You can see this example with African Americans who give birth to ''white'' children. Since most likley both the parent has recessive traits sometimes many show up in the offpsring in later generation.

In a previous post you made some statements about allele and Africans having the most. Not entirely true since many allele are private amung different ethnic groups and some are shared. The modern day Egyptians have private allele that are shared by no other groups and also allele that are shared with continental Africans.

You might want to reread Greogor Mendel's experiment done with the peaplant.

quote:

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s I noted before you all place too much emphasis on phenotypes, that you fail to internalize, that several tribes have been discovered through out Africa,

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How many are these tribes atuhenic? What you might not know is that lots of ''white'' missionaries created myths about Hebrews being in Africa to steal African history. You fall right into those diffusionist lies when you create myths like these. Perhaps,some hebrew tribes exist throughout Africa,but they never influced much of the local culture. This is why I laugh each time I hear the Black hebrew Israelites talk about tribes in Western Africa .

What they never bother to mention is the Akan in Ghana have stories of coimng from the east except from the modern region of Kintampo where the oldest agirtculture in Western Africa started.

Many Africans have been known to fabricate geneologies to connect themselves to Arabs or Islam. Racist European scholars played into this nonsense.

quote:

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,that are Jews like, the Abayudaya in Uganda

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They're converts!!!

quote:

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the Lemba in Zimbabwe

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What you might know about the Lemba is many claim to come form Yemeni Jews who migrated into inner Africa. How ironic that white supremist are usuing these false claims about the Lemba to deconstruct hard work to prove the Shona people built great Zimababwee. You are feeding right into this nonsense.

quote:

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the Lemba in Zimbabwe, the Beta Israel in Ethiopia, just to name a few. In fact a DNA sample was done on the Lemba and they had this particular Y chromosomal type that appears to be a signature of Jewish ancestry.

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This only means that Yemani males migrated to inner Africa intermarried into the local Bantu population. You are not seriously going to tell me the original Hebrews looked like Lemba people? How would you explain the Sephardim and other Jews in India or China? Funny how all these local Jews look no different from the local populations.

You know in Hellenistic Egypt Jews were all over Egypt including southern regions like Aswan and Luxor.

This might be why you find the pressence of certain halpotypes in southern Egyptian populations. Some Jews also exist in Sudan called the Mahdi I believe.

posted 03 June 2004 02:05 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
What you fail to realize is that that Table of Nations corresponds to Nations not races. The original purpose of calling blacks hamites was to justify enslaving them so it was never good in the first place, it just got worse when they changed its meaning to denote dark-white people. The first reference of hamites with blacks came from a Jewish rabbi, long after Biblical times. The Bible calls people by place names, not Hamites and Semites to denote race, ie, Canaanites, Jebusites, Amorites, Edomites,etc. None of those names denotes race. You guys(you and wally) are buying into the racist pseudo-science that was intended to enslave black people. Furthermore, why should blacks be restricted to the line of ham? You're both shortsighted.

---

Vagina -- Kat (Egyptian) Cott li (Wolof)
Katt bi (vulgar Wolof term for having sex)

Top of Head -- Top (Egyptian) Bop (Wolof)

Ref: Egyptian - EWB
Wolof - http://www.bcconline.org/wolof/Language/Vocab.htm
P.S. You should take note of the statement at the heading of this website - keeping in mind the furore both you and Ozzy raised over the Wolof words "kem" and "khem" --
"Not all of the Wolof words are known by all Wolof speakers. Some words are known by few Wolof speakers."

[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 03 June 2004).]

posted 03 June 2004 04:47 PM            

With regard to In a previous post you made some statements about allele and Africans having the most
Just read this link: http://129.128.91.75/de/genetics/70gen-other.html

Nothing's worst than taking 1 example to try to disprove someone.

"Duffy is controlled by two co-dominant alleles, Fya and Fyb; as well as Fy, a third allele, very rare in Caucasians but common in Blacks. There are four red cell phenotypes..Most Caucasians (~49%) inherit both Fya and Fyb and type as Fy(a+b+). Most Blacks (68% in USA; higher in African countries) inherit two Fy genes and type as Fy(a-b-)."

Note emphasis on Blacks (as in USA) compared to "higher" in Africans, which one could only conclude to mean "BLACK AFRICANS".

Originally quoted by Ausar:
This only means that Yemani males migrated to inner Africa intermarried into the local Bantu population
Where is the scientific evidence to support this, since it has clearly been proven that the priestly Buba clan has the Kohen haplotype in a higher percentage than Ashkenazi priests do. Furthermore, the non-Buba Lemba have the highest percentage of the Kohen haplotype outside of the priestly caste, among populations tested to date - higher than Ashkenazim and Sephardim added together!

"The researchers found that Lemba men carried a DNA signature on their Y chromosome that is believed unique to the relatively small number of Jews known as the Cohanim, who trace their ancestry to the priests of the ancient Jewish Temple and, ultimately, to Aaron, brother of Moses"

Reference:A. B. Spurdle and T. Jenkins. "The Origins of the Lemba 'Black Jews' of Southern Africa: Evidence from p12F2 and Other Y-Chromosome Markers." American Journal of Human Genetics 59 (1996): 1126-1133.

Here you come up with some arbitrary story of some Jew travelling thru Africa to intermarry with the Lemba. How fartfetched is that!

I know, you're only trying to "remove" Black Africans from the land of Cannaan, yet you contradict yourself with the earlier statement about the Ethiopian Jews. Probably so that you can "theorize" Queen of Seba, travelled there to marry Solomon.

I dont follow any racist scholar when I place "blacks" in the land of Canaan, regardless of what stereotypes have arisen. I think its people that try to completely remove blacks from this area, is only doing so, to remove any connection of blacks with Phoenicians.

Other references: Remember 10% of the Lemba tested of Cohen Jews, and only 3% for the Jews actually LIVING in Israel. http://www.familytreedna.com/faqjg.html#q5.3

The most comprehensible argument would be that the Lemba are simply one of the "Lost Tribes" of Israel. Anything else will need to be supported by more than "fantasy".

posted 03 June 2004 05:04 PM            

One the subject of Wolof, are you maintaining that basic words like colors are not widely used by all Wolof speakers. Any resource will tell you that the main Wolof speakers are Rural, and urban speakers are the ones who are influenced by other languages lick French and Dutch. If they were more complexed words which did not influence the daily life of and the average Wolof speaker, it would be worth considering but as they are the basis of the language then the suggestion is absurd.

The explanation, although I still have not found anything closer than Keen! Representing burning or black, is that there are a number of dialects of Wolof, but only those words which are consistent among the majority of dialects can be considered to represent the whole Wolof language and be genetically related to any other language. This does not however decrease the possibility of contact and an influence by another languages like Egyptian. A position I have not disputed. Khem does not seem to be one of these words, nor Maar.

Quote: Language study on Wolof:
“As Senegal becomes an increasingly bilingual country, WolofFrench, the languages are also used together in common discourse. It would be unusual for a young urbanite with some education to speak only Wolof or French. Pure Wolof comes across as kawkaw or "hick," while pure French earns one the derogatory epithet of "cheepcheep," a word which describes the breathy and birdlike way that French people speak (according to certain Senegalese) and, by extension, implies that the speaker is francophile. For young people in Dakar, and especially young men, the use of a mixture of Wolof and French is considered expected and unavoidable (Swigart).”

Quote Wally: “The Table of Nations is merely a reproduction of the Ancient Egyptian Mural of the Races, the Egyptian system of identifying racial groups”.

On this subject, this has been misrepresented for way to long.
The so called mural, of races is part of The Book of Gates which is the principal guidebook to the netherworld found in the 19th and part of the 20th Dynasty tombs of the New Kingdom,

Although it makes its first appearance with the last king of the 18th Dynasty.

The purpose of the Book of Gates was meant to allow the dead pharaoh to navigate his way along the netherworld route together with the sun god, so that his resurrection could be effected.

It emphases gates with guardian deities who's names must be known in order to pass them.

This is actually a very old tradition dating to at least the Book of the Two Ways in the Coffin Texts, where there are seven gates with three keepers at each.

The “mural of races” makes its appearance in the the book of gates at the fourth division fifth hour.

“Hour Five is one of the most complex hours within the composition. In the upper registers, the gods are portrayed with a surveying cord, because the deceased are allotted space (in the form of fields) within this hour. The deceased are also allotted time, and hence the gods also carry the body of a serpent and the hieroglyphs meaning "lifetime" in the lower register. In order to accomplish this, the Apophis fiend, known as "the Retreater, must once again be battled and fettered. Behind Apophis we notice the ba-souls of the blessed dead and at the beginning of the lower register are found the four "races" of mankind, including Egyptians, Asiatics, Nubians and Libyans. Each race is represented by four individual figures, who are “assured” existence in the afterlife. They are placed in the care of Horus and Sakhmet. It should be noted that the Great Hymn of Akhenaten, Aten is said to care even for foreign people, and hence, they are sheltered in the realm of the dead, according to the Book of Gates.”
It is important to remember that these “race” representatives are those who are along with Egyptians “Assured” existence in the After word, and accepted as equals. Hardly a racist philosophy! And hardly representative of your translations and associations to red devils!

The single representation you have on your site is from Ramesses III and is the only representation which is not consistent with all the others, but is touted as the true representation of this relief.

Ohh and by the way bcconline also recommend the same dictionaries I have used. Do you have a resource that does not support my references?

Ozzy

posted 03 June 2004 05:09 PM            

Do you not understand that the Bantu migration in Cameroon occured about 800 B.C. and people did not actually get to their location untill about 10 AD or later.

The Yemani hypothesis is not as far fetched as trying to connect the Amharan to the Queen of Sheba. The Kebra Nagast was profaganda started by the Zagwe dyansty to legitmize their ties to Judahism.

You ripped the allele article from me and Ozzy's discussion. Still you said previously that Africans had the most allele diversity which is not true since all people have private and common allele that are even shared between races.

Some negriod remains were found in early Palestine under the natufians,but this does not mean the Caanite or ultimatley the Phonecians were black people. Phonecians themselves were a combination of Sea people and indigenous Caanites.

posted 03 June 2004 05:19 PM            

It's quite this simple.

Wally is getting his perception from Carleton S. Coon who called the murals the first authenic anthropological analysis. We of course know that Coon was wrong on many things including this observation. The murals were wrongly called the Murals of races by Karl Lepsisus when he found the tomb.

See the following from Gay Robbins:

[......The choice of the single red-brown color to represent The
Egyptian man,rather than a more realistic range of shades ,should
also considered within a wider symbolic scheme that included the
representations of foreginers. The foreigne men to the north and west
of Egypt were depicted by yellow skin[similar to that odf traditional
Egyptian women]; men to the south of Egypt were given black skin.
Although undoubtedly some Egyptians' skin pigmentation differed
little from that of Egypt's neighboors,in the Egyptian worldview
foreigners had to be distinguished . Thus Egyptian men had to be
marked by a common skin color that contrasted with the images of non-
Egyptian men. That the Egyptian women shared their skin color with
some foreign men scarcely mattered,since the Egyptian male is primary
and formed the reference point in these two color scemes---
contrasting in one with non-Egyptian males and in the other with
Egyptian females. Within the scheme of Egyptian/non-Egyptian skin
color,black was not desirable for ordinary humans ,because it marked
out figures as foreign ,as enemies of Egypt,and ultimatley as
represenatives of chaos;black thereby contrasted with its positive
meaning elsewhere. This example helps demostrate the importance of
context for reading color symbolism.........]

[......Thus,the gender distinctionencoded for human figures was
transferred at times to the divie world. The symbolisminherant in the
skin colors used for some deities and royal figures sugest that the
colors given to human skin---although initiallyseeming to be
naturalistic -----might also be symbolic. Male and female skin colors
were probabaly not uniform among the entire population of Egypt,with
pigmentation being darker in the south[closer to sub-sahara Africans]
and lighter in the north[closer to Mediterranean Near Easteners] A
woman from the south would probabaly have had darker skin than a man
from the North. Thus,the colorations used for skin tones in the art
must have been schematic [or symbolic] rather than realistic;the
clear gender distinction encoded in that scheme may have been based
on elite ideals relating to male and female roles,in which women's
responsibilities kept them indoors,so that they spent less time in
the sun than men.Nevertheless, the signifcance of the two colors may
be even deeper,making some as yet unknown but fundamental difference
between men and women in Egyptian worldview............]

The Ancient God Speak by Donald Redford

A Guide to Egyptian Religion

Page 57-61 Color Symbolism

posted 03 June 2004 05:28 PM            

Did you know that if you type "Mural of Races/Egypt" in MSN Search, Yahoo Search, or Google Search, your site is in "first" standing.

posted 03 June 2004 06:37 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by homeylu:
BTW Wally your website on the "Mural of Races" is quite impressive, you cant imagine how times I've posted that link whenever the question to how the Egyptians view themselves come up. I first saw it in "Civilization or Barbarism" by C.A. Diop.

Did you know that if you type "Mural of Races/Egypt" in MSN Search, Yahoo Search, or Google Search, your site is in "first" standing.

Just thought you should know :-)

---

LOL its like posting a picture of Dustin Hofman in drag as Tootsy, saying thats his self perception and true image. The only time he dressed in Drag!

The Ramesses III depiction of the "Mural of races" truely shows the Egyptians (A group) as identical to the (C group) nubians (other africans) but it is in fact the only one that represents the image this way out of at last nine depictions known through the 19th dynasty. Six of which can be seen in the Vally of kings.

Further all other depictions of Egyptians in the Ramesses III tomb are consistant to oneanother but different to these four figures. The only ones in a group of thousands over hundreds of years. Again an example of selective imagery to support an argument.

I have no doubt it was not done by accident, and hopfully one day we will know why, but I do know it was not the one instance that the Egyptians decided to show the world who they truely were after decieving them for milenia.

Does anyone know in more detail of Ramesses and his families origins.

posted 03 June 2004 06:42 PM            

It is not proof of their perception of race, thier phylosyphy of race nor their personal perception. In fact it is a rare depiction.

Ausar, can you email me I would like to ask for you comments on the low level of Yap++ in the Khoisan, and your thoughts of its origins and relationship between groups in Africa. I can only find two released papers on the Yap++ are you aware of any more recent?

Ozzy

[This message has been edited by Ozzy (edited 03 June 2004).]

posted 03 June 2004 07:31 PM            

As soon as you explain why the Sephardic/Ashkanazi Jews look like other whites from Eastern/Western Europe and even some Arabs.

Originally posted by Ausar
You ripped the allele article from me and Ozzy's discussion
Arrogant of you to think that you and Ozzy are the only authorities on this subject. Did you two have the same links I posted, if so it was purely coincidental, as I havent read a single post by either of you on the subject.

Some negriod remains were found in early Palestine under the natufians,but this does not mean the Caanite or ultimatley the Phonecians were black people
And it doesnt mean they were not either.

Phonecians themselves were a combination of Sea people and indigenous Caanites.

Is "Sea People" one of the new "phenotypes" of race categories.

posted 03 June 2004 07:45 PM            

*scratching my head*

The logic of some people

posted 03 June 2004 08:12 PM            

I believe there was a new study done upon Nigerian people using Yap+.

posted 03 June 2004 09:10 PM            

Isn't your email addy,.com,I won't say the rest,wouldnt want you to get any "hate" mail LMAO.

I can't understand how anyone could hate you. While I personally dont agree with you on some things, I haven't seen anything you posted that would cause someone to hate you. And then again I haven't read every single thing you posted either.

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 03 June 2004).]

posted 03 June 2004 09:34 PM            

You're just repeating the useless argument of S. Mohammed, since I never claimed Judaism was a race.

All I did was provide evidence of a Black Race that is genetically related to Moses/Aaron. And provided scientific evidence that proved the priests of this ethnic group had a higher percentage of the "Cohen" gene than the Sephardic and Ashkenazi priesthood combined.

The thing that gets me in your arguments is your tendency to keep Black Africans confined to the Borders of Africa,(south/central Africa more specifically) but wont do the same for other races, although you may not be concious of it.

It is not unreasonable to recognize the fact that the "Bene Israel" of India, can trace routes, from Israel to Spain finally inhabiting India. But the only logical way to explain the genetic heritage of the Lemba, is some "outsider", had to come all the way thru the continent of Africa, passing all these other Africans along the route, to interbreed with the Lemba, when the logical response would have been they are one the 10 lost tribes of Israel.

Reference:
"Several Lemba males were tested for the Cohanim modal haplotype in a recent study. Results indicate that ~50% of the male Lemba leaders contain the Cohen gene. This is a striking discovery since only ~10% of the general male Jewish population carry this Cohen haplotype."
http://www.creationists.org/patrickyoung/article10.html

posted 03 June 2004 11:18 PM            

quote:

---

All I did was provide evidence of a Black Race that is genetically related to Moses/Aaron. And provided scientific evidence that proved the priests of this ethnic group had a higher percentage of the "Cohen" gene than the Sephardic and Ashkenazi priesthood combined

---

Let me add a little fuel to the fire by saying that Aaron's grandson carried the priestly line and was named Phineas which in Egyptian means ''the Nubian''. Most likley I believe this might add some legitmacy to the argument. Let's also note that Akenaten had a Aten priest and trasuer named Pa-Neshsi as well. Quite a coinsedence,huh?

So perhaps the progenator of the priestly line was black but does that mean the people who migrated to the land of the Lemba were the same ''black'' people.

My very own observation is that the so-called Hebrews were not from Mesopotamia but from Egypt and were cast out into the desert. All the biblical chracters are really Egyptian in origin and that includes Yeshusa Ben yusef as well.

See the following:

Phineas
(1) The grandson of Aaron who violently defended the covenant; he was granted the "covenant of priesthood" by which the line of Aaron was given the privelege of the priestly office forever. See Numbers 25:10-13 and Chapter 4. (2) Another Phineas was the son of Eli, the high priest at Shiloh during the time of Samuel. See Hophni.
http://www.hope.edu/academic/religion/bandstra/RTOT/GLOSSARY/P.HTM

at is a single sound in Egypto-Coptic and Arabic,
and the words derive either from Arabic or Egypto-Coptic. A number of
names also are from Egyptian derivation, including Susan, from shesnu,
"lotus flower", the Jewish name Phineas, from Pa-nehsy "The Nubian",
and of course Moses, from msw, "born of". That name incidently is found
in the New Kingdom, Dynasty written simply msw, Mose, in Egyptian
documents. So, it is not necessary to postulate that Moses' name was
originally compounded with a divine name in from of it. Another name
Gardiner long ago noted is Humphrey, found as Onnofrio in Italian,
and Onnophrio in Greek, and of course in Egyptian, Wenn-nefer, a title
of Osiris. Then there is Isadora, from Isis-di-eres, and Isabella from
Isis-nfrt. There the bella is translated from nfrt "beautiful". So
again names beginning with Isa, are derived from names starting with Isis.

Most sincerely,

Frank J.Yurco
University of Chicago

--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu

Panehsy
18th Dynasty

Panehsy was the chief priest at Amarna who brought with him to the city a stele of Amenhetep III and Queen Tiy to set up in a domestic shrine. His house lay in the Main City well back from the Royal Road in Amarna and he was one of the favored few with a large tomb in the northern group. http://www.touregypt.net/who/panehsy.htm

quote:

---

The thing that gets me in your arguments is your tendency to keep Black Africans confined to the Borders of Africa,(south/central Africa more specifically) but wont do the same for other races, although you may not be concious of it.

---

Not true if you read some of my previous post I admitted that Southern Yemen has always had a high black population. However,you want to link just about everybody with a ''black'' phenotype despite their being descrete differences in cranial-facial and even genetics. Where exactly do we draw the line?

I just go by what I have read in various peer-reviwed journals and not by wishful thinking.

quote:

---

It is not unreasonable to recognize the fact that the "Bene Israel" of India, can trace routes, from Israel to Spain finally inhabiting India. But the only logical way to explain the genetic heritage of the Lemba, is some "outsider", had to come all the way thru the continent of Africa, passing all these other Africans along the route, to interbreed with the Lemba, when the logical response would have been they are one the 10 lost tribes of Israel.

---

Notice once again that the Bene Israel look no different from East Indian people. How would you explain nearly all the Jews look no different than the surrounding population other than most took local wives and that the migration was mostly males. Have you not heard of Babylonian Captivity and the Disapora?

The Lemba themselves say they are foreginers and not indigenous.

I also admit to the divergence and diversity of indigenous black Africans in penotype. You will never catch me aruging the proposed Hamitic Hypothesis that you so deperatley cling to.

quote:

---

Reference:
"Several Lemba males were tested for the Cohanim modal haplotype in a recent study. Results indicate that ~50% of the male Lemba leaders contain the Cohen gene. This is a striking discovery since only ~10% of the general male Jewish population carry this Cohen haplotype." http://www.creationists.org/patrickyoung/article10.html

---

Read these studies don't exactly say what you think they do.

1: Developing World Bioeth. 2003 Dec;3(2):128-32. Related Articles, Links

Yearning for the long lost home: the Lemba and Jewish narrative of genetic return.

Zoloth L.

Center for Genetic Medicine, Northwestern University, Feinberg School of Medicine, Suite 624, 750 North Lake Shore Drive, Chicago, IL 60611, USA. lzoloth@northwestern.edu

This commentary examines the relationship between genetics and Jewish identity. It focuses especially on the use of Y-chromosome testing to map the genealogies of the Lemba in southern Africa.

PMID: 14768644 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14768644

: Developing World Bioeth. 2003 Dec;3(2):112-8. Related Articles, Links

Constructing black Jews: genetic tests and the Lemba--the 'black Jews' of South Africa.

Parfitt T.

Department of the Near and Middle East, School of Oriental and Africa Studies, Russell Square, London WC1H 0XG, UK. tp@soas.ac.uk

This commentary examines the use of Y-chromosome testing to reconstruct a genetic ancestry for the Lemba, a group in southern Africa that has long considered itself Jewish. The commentary looks especially at the reasons why this project drew such attention from the mainstream media.

PMID: 14768642 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14768642

: Developing World Bioeth. 2003 Dec;3(2):109-11. Related Articles, Links

Case study: the Lemba.

Johnston J.

The Hastings Center, 21 Malcolm Gordon Road, Garrison, New York 10524, USA. johnstonj@thehastingscenter.org

The attempts of scholars and scientists to unravel the mystery of the ancestral origins of the Lemba are summarised, focusing on Tudor Parfitt's book, Journey to the Vanished City, and a study by an international group of genetic and social scientists. The impact of this research on identity questions is raised.

PMID: 14768641 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14768641

1: Am J Hum Genet. 2000 Oct;67(4):926-35. Epub 2000 Aug 28. Related Articles, Links
[Click here to read]
Consistent long-range linkage disequilibrium generated by admixture in a Bantu-Semitic hybrid population.

Wilson JF, Goldstein DB.

Department of Biology, University College London, London, United Kingdom.

Both the optimal marker density for genome scans in case-control association studies and the appropriate study design for the testing of candidate genes depend on the genomic pattern of linkage disequilibrium (LD). In this study, we provide the first conclusive demonstration that the diverse demographic histories of human populations have produced dramatic differences in genomewide patterns of LD. Using a panel of 66 markers spanning the X chromosome, we show that, in the Lemba, a Bantu-Semitic hybrid population, markers </= approximately 21 cM apart have a significantly greater tendency to show LD than do unlinked markers. In three populations with less evidence of admixture, however, excess LD disappears >2 cM. Moreover, analysis of Bantu and Ashkenazi populations as putative parental populations of the Lemba shows a significant relationship between allele-frequency differentials and the LD observed in the Lemba, which demonstrates that much of the excess LD is due to admixture. Our results suggest that demographic history has such a profound effect on LD that it will not be possible to predict patterns a priori but that it will be necessary to empirically evaluate the patterns in all populations of interest.

PMID: 10961910 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10961910

1: Am J Hum Genet. 2000 Feb;66(2):674-86. Related Articles, Links
[Click here to read]
Y chromosomes traveling south: the cohen modal haplotype and the origins of the Lemba--the "Black Jews of Southern Africa".

Thomas MG, Parfitt T, Weiss DA, Skorecki K, Wilson JF, le Roux M, Bradman N, Goldstein DB.

The Center for Genetic Anthropology, Departments of Biology and Anthropology, University College London, London, United Kingdom.

The Lemba are a traditionally endogamous group speaking a variety of Bantu languages who live in a number of locations in southern Africa. They claim descent from Jews who came to Africa from "Sena." "Sena" is variously identified by them as Sanaa in Yemen, Judea, Egypt, or Ethiopia. A previous study using Y-chromosome markers suggested both a Bantu and a Semitic contribution to the Lemba gene pool, a suggestion that is not inconsistent with Lemba oral tradition. To provide a more detailed picture of the Lemba paternal genetic heritage, we analyzed 399 Y chromosomes for six microsatellites and six biallelic markers in six populations (Lemba, Bantu, Yemeni-Hadramaut, Yemeni-Sena, Sephardic Jews, and Ashkenazic Jews). The high resolution afforded by the markers shows that Lemba Y chromosomes are clearly divided into Semitic and Bantu clades. Interestingly, one of the Lemba clans carries, at a very high frequency, a particular Y-chromosome type termed the "Cohen modal haplotype," which is known to be characteristic of the paternally inherited Jewish priesthood and is thought, more generally, to be a potential signature haplotype of Judaic origin. The Bantu Y-chromosome samples are predominantly (>80%) YAP+ and include a modal haplotype at high frequency. Assuming a rapid expansion of the eastern Bantu, we used variation in microsatellite alleles in YAP+ sY81-G Bantu Y chromosomes to calculate a rough date, 3,000-5,000 years before the present, for the start of their expansion.

PMID: 10677325 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10677325

1: Am J Hum Genet. 1996 Nov;59(5):1126-33. Related Articles, Links

The origins of the Lemba "Black Jews" of southern Africa: evidence from p12F2 and other Y-chromosome markers.

Spurdle AB, Jenkins T.

Department of Human Genetics, School of Pathology, The South African Institute for Medical Research and University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg.

The Lemba are a southern African Bantu-speaking population claiming Jewish ancestry. Allele frequencies at four different Y-specific polymorphic loci, as well as extended-haplotype frequencies that included data from several loci, were analyzed in an attempt to establish the genetic affinities and origins of the Lemba. The results suggest that > or = 50% of the Lemba Y chromosomes are Semitic in origin, approximately 40% are Negroid, and the ancestry of the remainder cannot be resolved. These Y-specific genetic findings are consistent with Lemba oral tradition, and analysis of the history of Jewish people and their association with Africa indicates that the historical facts are not incompatible with theories concerning the origin of the Lemba.

PMID: 8900243 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8900243

posted 04 June 2004 01:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by homeylu:
Originally posted by Ausar
[b]Can you explain why the Lemba Jews look like Central and Southern African?

As soon as you explain why the Sephardic/Ashkanazi Jews look like other whites from Eastern/Western Europe and even some Arabs.

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Ashkenazis have a higher percentage of European ancestry, thats why they look "white", Sephardim look much closer to to proto-Midean people. If you read history correctly you would know that Israel received a mass influx of Jews of European ancestry after WW2.

quote:

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Is "Sea People" one of the new "phenotypes" of race categories.

Sounds like the same argument in calling the Egyptians "mediterranean"

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Have you looked up who the Sea Peoples are? Very ignorant of you to make assumptions about things you do not know.

posted 04 June 2004 03:02 AM            

What would the other forum be about? I would post there if you tell me more about it.

posted 04 June 2004 09:00 AM            

But if you go to the beginning of this Forum
"Ancient Egypt and Egyptology" and click on the hyperlink to your name (where it says moderated by) anyone could get your email address.

posted 04 June 2004 09:39 AM            

And by connecting the Lemba to Moses/Aaron is also southern Africans to Egypt.

With regard to the language aspect of the orginal post, I will quote from Sigmund Freud's Book "Moses and Montheism". In this books Freud successfully connects Moses to Akenaton/monotheism-an Egyptian original concept.

Using only his name "Moses" as we know it today, Freud show how the Hebrew meaning of his name "Mosche" simply means "drawer out", in that he drew the Hebrew People out of Egypt, and there is no evidence suggesting he was "drawn out" of water.

That the original name "Mose" is simply an Egyptian name meaning "child". Examples given were Amen-mose(Amon has given a child), Ptah-mose (Ptah has given a child), and that the name "Mose" is not uncommon on Egyptian text. And that the final "s" was given by the Greek tanslantion of the Old Testament.

Wallace (as usual) did an excellent job on his website posting the Egyptian text "The Book of the Great Awakening" in it shows how the commandments of the Hebrew Bible, also had Egyptian origins.
http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/moses2.html

posted 04 June 2004 10:21 AM            

And as for your argument about the Table of Nations being only about nations, here's another Biblical quote:

Gen:10:20 "These are the sons of Ham, after their families,after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations"

And most intelligent people that read the bible know that Ham was not cursed, only Canaan. And no where in the Bible did it say all the "descendants" of Canaan should also be cursed.

posted 04 June 2004 02:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by homeylu:
You are correct in asserting that this topic is related to Egypt. My purpose was showing that the people of Canaan were but colonies of former Egyptians,(that eventually mixed with sons of Shem) since Canaan was a son of Ham.

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But you are wrong. The people of Canaan were not from colonies of Egyptians who mixed with Semites. If you read the Bible, Egyptians didn't come from Canaanites. Mizraim is the brother of Canaan, and Mizraim is Egypt. Thus Canaanites were not Semiticized Egyptians. Read this:

1 Now these are {the records of} the generations of Shem, Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah; and sons were born to them after the flood. 2 The sons of Japheth {were} Gomer and Magog and Madai and Javan and Tubal and Meshech and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer {were} Ashkenaz and Riphath and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan {were} Elishah and Tarshish, Kittim and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastlands of the nations were separated into their lands, every one according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.

6 The sons of Ham {were} Cush and Mizraim and Put and Canaan. 7 The sons of Cush {were} Seba and Havilah and Sabtah and Raamah and Sabteca; and the sons of Raamah {were} Sheba and Dedan. 8 Now Cush became the father of Nimrod; he became a mighty one on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; therefore it is said, "Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the LORD." 10 The beginning of his kingdom was Babel and Erech and Accad and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land he went forth into Assyria, and built Nineveh and Rehoboth-Ir and Calah, 12 and Resen between Nineveh and Calah; that is the great city. 13 Mizraim became the father of Ludim R237 and Anamim and Lehabim and Naphtuhim 14 and Pathrusim and Casluhim (from which came the Philistines) and Caphtorim.

15 Canaan became the father of Sidon, his firstborn, and Heth 16 and the Jebusite and the Amorite and the Girgashite 17 and the Hivite and the Arkite and the Sinite 18 and the Arvadite and the Zemarite and the Hamathite; and afterward the families of the Canaanite were spread abroad. 19 The territory of the Canaanite extended from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; as you go toward Sodom and Gomorrah and Admah and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha. 20 These are the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their languages, by their lands, by their nations.

Thus your theory is debunked. Look at Canaan's sons all of the names correspond to areas along the Eastern Mediterranean, not Africa. Sidon, Sodom, Gomorrah, and Gaza are along the Eastern Mediterranean. The Jebusites are also mentioned. They were inhabitants of the land the Israelites would eventually occupy, read the Bible. Another point to notice that I did not highlight was one of Gomer's son's, Ashkenaz. Ashkenaz is synonymous with the modern day Ashkenazi Jews, who are a Semitic speaking Middle Eastern people with RECENT European admixture. Ashkenazis are Semitic peoples, not Japethtites. Accad is also mentioned, but not under Shem. Accadians were Semitic speaking peoples. LÖook at nimrod, Cush's son. Look at the names of the places that his territory spread to, Assyria, and Nineveh, can you prove that assyrians were black or had a heavy amount of blacks therer or better yet, that they were Hamitic speakers? They were also a Semitic speaking people.

I told you the table Nations correspond to Nations, not races.

Once again you debunk yourself without even knowing it.

posted 04 June 2004 02:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by homeylu:
You are correct in asserting that this topic is related to Egypt. My purpose was showing that the people of Canaan were but colonies of former Egyptians,(that eventually mixed with sons of Shem) since Canaan was a son of Ham.

---

But you are wrong. The people of Canaan were not from colonies of Egyptians who mixed with Semites. If you read the Bible, Egyptians didn't come from Canaanites. Mizraim is the brother of Canaan, and Mizraim is Egypt. Thus Canaanites were not Semiticized Egyptians. Read this:

1 Now these are {the records of} the generations of Shem, Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah; and sons were born to them after the flood. 2 The sons of Japheth {were} Gomer and Magog and Madai and Javan and Tubal and Meshech and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer {were} Ashkenaz and Riphath and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan {were} Elishah and Tarshish, Kittim and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastlands of the nations were separated into their lands, every one according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.

6 The sons of Ham {were} Cush and Mizraim and Put and Canaan. 7 The sons of Cush {were} Seba and Havilah and Sabtah and Raamah and Sabteca; and the sons of Raamah {were} Sheba and Dedan. 8 Now Cush became the father of Nimrod; he became a mighty one on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; therefore it is said, "Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the LORD." 10 The beginning of his kingdom was Babel and Erech and Accad and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land he went forth into Assyria, and built Nineveh and Rehoboth-Ir and Calah, 12 and Resen between Nineveh and Calah; that is the great city. 13 Mizraim became the father of Ludim R237 and Anamim and Lehabim and Naphtuhim 14 and Pathrusim and Casluhim (from which came the Philistines) and Caphtorim.

15 Canaan became the father of Sidon, his firstborn, and Heth 16 and the Jebusite and the Amorite and the Girgashite 17 and the Hivite and the Arkite and the Sinite 18 and the Arvadite and the Zemarite and the Hamathite; and afterward the families of the Canaanite were spread abroad. 19 The territory of the Canaanite extended from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; as you go toward Sodom and Gomorrah and Admah and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha. 20 These are the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their languages, by their lands, by their nations.

Thus your theory is debunked. Look at Canaan's sons all of the names correspond to areas along the Eastern Mediterranean, not Africa. Sidon, Sodom, Gomorrah, and Gaza are along the Eastern Mediterranean. The Jebusites are also mentioned. They were inhabitants of the land the Israelites would eventually occupy, read the Bible. Another point to notice that I did not highlight was one of Gomer's son's, Ashkenaz. Ashkenaz is synonymous with the modern day Ashkenazi Jews, who are a Semitic speaking Middle Eastern people with RECENT European admixture. Ashkenazis are Semitic peoples, not Japethtites. Accad is also mentioned, but not under Shem. Accadians were Semitic speaking peoples. LÖook at nimrod, Cush's son. Look at the names of the places that his territory spread to, Assyria, and Nineveh, can you prove that assyrians were black or had a heavy amount of blacks therer or better yet, that they were Hamitic speakers? They were also a Semitic speaking people.

I told you the table Nations correspond to Nations, not races.

Once again you debunk yourself without even knowing it.

posted 04 June 2004 02:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
What you might know about the Lemba is many claim to come form Yemeni Jews who migrated into inner Africa.

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Thought Writes:

posted 04 June 2004 02:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Some negriod remains were found in early Palestine under the natufians,but this does not mean the Caanite or ultimatley the Phonecians were black people. Phonecians themselves were a combination of Sea people and indigenous Caanites.

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Thought Writes:

posted 04 June 2004 02:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by homeylu:

It is not unreasonable to recognize the fact that the "Bene Israel" of India, can trace routes, from Israel to Spain finally inhabiting India.
[/B]

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Can you direct me to you sources for this claim please.

Ozzy

posted 04 June 2004 02:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by homeylu:
As soon as you explain why the Sephardic/Ashkanazi Jews look like other whites from Eastern/Western Europe and even some Arabs.

---

posted 04 June 2004 02:36 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by homeylu:
Sounds like the same argument in calling the Egyptians "mediterranean"

---

posted 04 June 2004 02:37 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
I think all of these discussions we're having now are deviating from Egypt, if I create a forum to discuss these other issues would anyone be interested in posting in it?

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Yep!!!

posted 04 June 2004 02:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Shepardic look no different from other Palestineans.

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Thought Writes:

posted 04 June 2004 02:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
So perhaps the progenator of the priestly line was black but does that mean the people who migrated to the land of the Lemba were the same ''black'' people.
My very own observation is that the so-called Hebrews were not from Mesopotamia but from Egypt and were cast out into the desert.

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Thought Writes:

posted 04 June 2004 02:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

It would be interesting to compare the Lemba with Ethiopians in that Aksum ruled Yemen and there are connections between the prot-Swahili and Aksum

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The same genetic study on the Lemba said Ethiopian Jews are less mixed than Lemba. Ethiopian Jews(Beni Israel) are essentially continental African with little foreign admixture. Read here:

It is worth noting that the frequency of group VI chromosomes in the Ethiopian Jews (just one chromosome out of 22) is similar to that reported for the p12f2 chromosomes in the Oromo from Ethiopia (4%) and is considerably lower than the frequency reported for the Amhara of the same region (33%), for whom a strong Middle Eastern genetic component has been reported (Semino et al. 2002). These data, together with those reported elsewhere (Ritte et al. 1993a, 1993b; Hammer et al. 2000) suggest that the Ethiopian Jews acquired their religion without substantial genetic admixture from Middle Eastern peoples and that they can be considered an ethnic group with essentially a continental African genetic composition

Am. J. Hum. Genet., 70:1197-1214, 2002
A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes

posted 04 June 2004 02:46 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
Sephardim look much closer to to proto-Midean people

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Thought Writes:

posted 04 June 2004 02:48 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
Have you looked up who the Sea Peoples are? Very ignorant of you to make assumptions about things you do not know.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 04 June 2004 02:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
I think all of these discussions we're having now are deviating from Egypt, if I create a forum to discuss these other issues would anyone be interested in posting in it?

---

Thought Writes:

posted 04 June 2004 02:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Touche!!!

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This can easily be explained. The Middle Easterners who look the "whitest" are Syrians and Lebanese. Most but not all, look like Europeans. Palestinians don't all look the same but most are dark. The best way to explain this is that there is not clear cut-off of what is white or nonwhite. Israelis received a huge influx of post WWII refugees so you have to remember that some Jews will look European and claim Ashkhenazi or Sepheradim though in reality they are not.

Palestinians have only 15% sub-Saharan MTDNA and no sub-Saharan paternal DNA.

posted 04 June 2004 02:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Wally is getting his perception from Carleton S. Coon who called the murals the first authenic anthropological analysis. We of course know that Coon was wrong on many things including this observation. The murals were wrongly called the Murals of races by Karl Lepsisus when he found the tomb.

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b)This social science-ethnography--is the earliest example that I am aware of.

c) I am also aware of the fact that on the other murals - the one with the Egyptian social rankins that consist of a)Egyptians-"Reddish brown" b)Other Africans (black) c)Semites (yellow) and d)Europeans (white)--
Seems like an ethnographic document to me.

posted 04 June 2004 02:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by homeylu:
You are correct in asserting that this topic is related to Egypt. My purpose was showing that the people of Canaan were but colonies of former Egyptians...

---

Thought Writes:

posted 04 June 2004 02:56 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

References please?

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The closest you will see to proto-Mderan people are those very dark southern Arabs of Oman and Yemen and Nabatean Bedouin of Jordan. They look very dark and disnticnt from both sub-Saharans and Europeans. Most anthropologists will not recognize a Proto-Midean people; they're often called "Orientalid", like the Usama bin Laden type people.

posted 04 June 2004 02:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
The same genetic study on the Lemba said Ethiopian Jews are less mixed than Lemba.
See what I mean now Thought?

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Thought Writes:

posted 04 June 2004 02:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by homeylu:
BTW Wally your website on the "Mural of Races" is quite impressive, you cant imagine how times I've posted that link whenever the question to how the Egyptians view themselves come up. I first saw it in "Civilization or Barbarism" by C.A. Diop.

Did you know that if you type "Mural of Races/Egypt" in MSN Search, Yahoo Search, or Google Search, your site is in "first" standing.

Just thought you should know :-)

---

posted 04 June 2004 02:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

This seems to be the case based on current archaeology.

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No, you are wrong. The Phoenician Canaanites already had settlements along the eastern Mediterranean before Egytian conquest, so there is no evidence that Canaanites descended from Egyptian colonists.

posted 04 June 2004 03:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
Palestinians have only 15% sub-Saharan MTDNA and no sub-Saharan paternal DNA.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 04 June 2004 03:13 PM            

was made possible by a Nuffield Foundation, Social Science Award,
administered by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.
I wish to thank my colleagues working on European Union Avicenne
Initiative Projects for their advice and support, in particular Salah
Al Zaroo and Gillian Hundt. My husband Abudi Kibwana Sizi assisted
during two visits to the Palestine. In the Nagab and Gaza many people
helped to put me in touch with colleagues, neighbours and friends of
African descent. They include Ibrahim Abu Jaffar, Adnan El Sanne,
Fatme Kassim, and Shahada Ebbweini.
Last but not least, I wish to thank all the people of African descent
who talked with me in Jeruslaem, Gaza and the Nagab. They are not
named so that their privacy can be maintained.
INTRODUCTION
This report summarises the findings of a project has addressed a
neglected and sensitive area of research about the history of
Palestine. The history of the region has been turbulent and has
involved the settlement of peoples from Asia, Africa and Europe.
Since the establishment of Israel in 1948, Palestinians have had
little time or inclination to study their origins prior to settlement
in Palestine. Indeed, such studies could be counter-productive as
they might pander to Israeli views that Palestinians are migrants to
the region. In recent years, much international attention has focused
on the Ethiopian Jews and their position within Israeli society.
However, although peoples of African origin other than the Ethiopian
Jews have been in Palestine for far longer, there are virtually no
accounts of how they arrived in the region or their position and role
within Middle Eastern society.

Interviews with black (sumr) Palestinians were conducted in Gaza, the
Nagab and Jerusalem between September 1995 and January 1998. Contact,
through introductions, was sought and people were interviewed
informally in their homes in either English or Arabic. At the start
of the project the 'peace process' under the Oslo Accords was in its
early stages and many Palestinians were optimistic. However, as the
political situation worsened it became more difficult to talk to
people about the highly sensitive and political issues of ethnic
origin, the legacy of slavery and their current status as Palestinian
or Israeli citizens.
This study was made possible by the kind co-operation of Palestinians
living in Jerusalem, Gaza and the Nagab. People of African descent
told me what they knew of their parents and grandparents and their
lives in Palestine. Some older people I spoke to Jerusalem had been
born in Africa, while others in the Nagab and Gaza told me what they
knew of how their ancestors came to Palestine. For many other people
the link with Africa had been lost and all but forgotten. In London I
searched libraries for historical accounts of the links between
Africa and Palestine. I did not find much. This shortage of
historical documentation makes the accounts of the people I spoke to
all the more important.
EARLY CONTACT BETWEEN AFRICA AND ARABIA
Palestine lies at the crossroads of Africa, Asia and Europe. For
thousands of years spices have passed along trade routes through
Palestine. Ambergris and frankincense were brought from Somalia and
Ethiopia. As well as trade, war, colonisation and pilgrimage all
ensured that the peoples and cultures of north-eastern Africa and
Arabia mingled.
In the seventh century there were Africans living in Arabia, and
Mohammed's trusted companion, Bilal was an Ethiopian freed slave.
Many, but not all, the Africans in Arabia were slaves. It is often
forgotten that there were slaves from many parts of the world in the
Middle East. For example Circassian people from the Asia Minor to the
north were prized as slaves. Black male slaves were often soldiers or
government administrators and some achieved high rank. Black women
worked as household slaves or were the concubines of wealthy high
status men. The children born to concubines were not slaves, and some
with fathers of high rank became leaders.
With the spread of Islam and the conversion of Africans in Africa,
more and more black people participated in the Haj. However there
were also migrations from Araba to Africa and later back to Arabia to
perform the Haj. The Palestinian historian Arif El-Arif reports that
some people trace the historical roots of contemporary Africans in
Jerusalem back to Arabia:
'The origins of the African community go back to pure Arabic roots.
The majority of the members are derived from the Arab Muslim tribe
called Al Salamat. This tribe was living in Jeddah, Hijaz (now in
Saudi Arabia), and then migrated to Chad and Sudan and other African
countries. However, members of the tribe kept up contact with Hijaz,
especially Mecca and Medina for the Haj, and after the pilgrimage
they went to Jerusalem to continue their worship in al Aqsa mosque,
the place of the nocturnal journey of the prophet Mohammed to the
Seven Heavens. So some of these visitors loved Jerusalem and stayed
in it.' (Arif el-Arif, address given in Jerusalem in 1971)
GUARDIANS OAFRICANS ASF THE HOLY PLACES
European writers and travellers tell a different story and report
that slaves of African origin guarded the Haram As-Sharif in
Jerusalem. According to these accounts Africans were deployed by
Mamluke and then Ottoman rulers to guard the holy places of Islam.
Similar guards also existed in Mecca and Medina. Although they were
slaves, they were respected, trusted and sometimes quite powerful.
The following information on the history of African Palestinians in
Jerusalem is taken from their own account entitled 'The Palestinian
Africans in Jerusalem: Between their Miserable Reality and Hopes for
the Future'.
The Africans living in Jerusalem are proud of their historic role as
guardians of the Islamic holy places since the time of the Mamluk in
the thirteenth century. They occupy the Mamluk buildings on either
side of Al'a Ad-Deen Street leading to Al Aqsa mosque. On one side
are the Al'a Ad-Deen Busari buildings, completed in 1267 and named
after the Mamluke founder of the quarter. On the other side are the
Al Mansouri buildings which were completed in 1282. Originally the
two Ribat were hostels for pilgrims worshipping at Al Asqa Mosque.
During the Ottoman period the Ribats were occupied by Africans who
worked as guards of the mosque and waqf properties. Because of their
honesty these Africans held keys to the gates of the mosque and were
responsible for preventing non-Muslims from entering the mosque area.
Towards the end of the Ottoman era the Ribats were converted into
prisons: Ribat Ad-Deen bacame Habs Ad -Dam, while Ribat Mansouri
became Habs Ar-Ribat. This situation continued until 1914.
After the British took over Palestine in 1918 the prisons were closed
and responsibility for the buildings was returned to the waqf
authorities who used the buildings for temporary housing for the
poor, including Africans. When Imam Hussein, Al Mufti, who led the
struggle against the British and Jews until 1948, took charge of the
waqf in Jerusalem he rented the two Ribats to the Africans at a
nominal rate. Some of the Africans continued their traditions and
worked as bodyguards to the Mufti himself. The descendants of the
Africans still live in the two Ribat, today.
In 1971 the care of the tomb of the founder of the quarter, Al'a Ad-
Deen Al Busari, restored by the African community, was entrusted to
them in a ceremony led by the ex-mayor of Jerusalem and historian,
Arif el-Arif. In his speech he stated that:
'Members of the African community were devoted guards of Al Aqsa
mosque. The African community is steadfast in Jerusalem and they did
not leave even in crisis situations.'
CONTEMPORAY AFRICANS IN JERUSALEM
During interviews with members of the African community in Jerusalem
I learnt of the recent history of Palestinians of African origin.
Their written account, mentioned above, 'The African Palestinians in
Jerusalem', provided more details.
Most contemporary members of the African community came to Jerusalem
as pilgrims and workers under the British Mandate of Palestine (1917-
1948). They came mostly from Senegal, Chad, Nigeria and Sudan. They
regard themselves as Palestinian and played an active role in the
Intifada. Some of the Africans arrived as part of the Egyptian
led 'Salvation Army' which aimed to liberate the Palestinian areas
held by Jews in 1948. After the defeat of that army and its retreat
to Egypt many Africans returned to their original countries, while
others preferred to stay in Palestine.
El Haj Jeddeh, who was born in Chad but traces his family origins to
Jeddah in the Hijaz, is the Mukhtar of the African community and some
other Arabs living in the vicinity. He has served under the British,
the Jordanians and now the Israelis. In addition, he also takes care
of the tomb of Al'a Ad-Deen Busari and acts as a spiritual leader to
his community.
Men who came from Africa to Jerusalem during this century married
local women, many of whom were of African descent themselves. Ties
with Jericho, where many black Palestinians live, are particularly
strong. Others married Palestinian women who have no ties with Africa.
In their account of their history 'The Palestinian Africans in
Jerusalem' they explain how when Israel occupied the West Bank many
Africans were forced to become refugees in surrounding countries'
leading to a 25% reduction of the numbers of African Palestinians
living in Jerusalem. African Palestinians were particularly active
during the Intifada and many confrontations with Israeli troops took
place. One day the Israelis arrested all males aged between 10 and 45
years and insulted them telling them 'you are Africans, you have
nothing to do with Palestine'.
MEMORIES OF SLAVERY IN BEDOUIN SOCIETY
Although Africans have been in Palestine for centuries, most people
know little about this migration. For centuries, under the Ottoman
Empire and before, slaves were brought from Africa. Some older people
today remember stories told by their parents or grandparents of how
they came to be in Palestine. Therefore it is possible to discover
something of the later history of slavery. Several people mentioned
that they had heard that there was a big slave market in Egypt and
one 'white' Bedouin told me that his grandfather had been a slave
trader who travelled regularly to Egypt. Most people with any idea of
where their ancestors came from mention Sudan or Ethiopia. Sometimes
they know the name of the town. Indeed, it is probable that many
Africans came from these countries as they are near to Palestine.
However, one woman I spoke to pointed out that 'we just say Sudan
because we do not know and because the name means 'place of black
people. It could just as easily have been Congo!' According to
history books, slave traders and owners used to make a distinction
between Ethiopians (Habash) and other Africans such as the Zanj from
the East African Coast. In their racist way of thinking, they
considered the Ethiopians to be superior to the other Africans.
In Gaza I spoke to people of Bedouin origin who had been living in
the Nagab prior to 1948. In the Nagab I spoke with Bedouin of African
descent who had stayed in the area after 1948. In Gaza, I also
encountered black people of the Al Rubayn ashira who were settled
Bedouin living around the area of Jaffa, before being driven from
their villages as refugees in 1948. They said that they were
unconnected to the Nagab Bedouin. Their name derived from Nabi
Rubooyn who thousands of years ago used a well near their home area.
These people of Bedouin origin currently resident in Gaza and the
Nagab recall being told by their elders how children were kidnapped
or bought in slave markets and brought, sometimes carried in the
camel saddle-bags, to live with important Bedouin families. This
occurred in the late nineteenth century and early twentieth century.
The children were often the only Africans living with the family.
They looked after animals, grew wheat and barley and performed
household tasks. People told me that the Bedouin did not use the
girls as concubines, although in the West Bank they did 'marry'
female slaves. Only big wealthy families owned and traded in slaves.
Black people were scattered throughout Palestine living with white
families who 'owned' them. However, some families needed slaves to
help in self- defence when they were weak in number. It is possible
that within the twentieth century adults were also brought from
Africa and sold as slaves. One elderly man reported that in his youth
he had come across African men who were strong, bore tribal scars on
their faces and spoke little Arabic.
One 'white' Bedouin man told me that slaves used to be branded like
animals, but that there were no papers concerning ownership or
origins. In the family unit, there were sometimes also other slaves
who were white, or low status dependants, such as hamran. But one man
told me that a white slave would never have answered to a black slave.
Some African children were educated along with the other, free,
children of the family. Once the children grew up their masters
arranged for them to be married. They never married white people,
even if they were also slaves. As there were not many Africans
around, marriage often meant that girls moved away from the master's
family. People also reported that, upon becoming adults, slaves could
choose to take their chances with freedom or to remain attached to a
family who would arrange marriage. This probably only occurred
towards the end of the institution of slavery, during the British
period, when it had already begun to fade away.
In the Nagab the Bedouin had a three tier social and political
system. Sheikhs were drawn from the Samran, the original Bedouin.
Attached to them as clients were the Hamran, families who were
originally felaheen, but required protection and/or land from Samran
families. The Abed, the slaves, were on the bottom tier and did not
have the same rights or status as free people.
Slaves did not count in blood feuds between families. Several people
told me that if a black man killed a white man, the death of that
black man would not count. Payment (sulha) could be made in money or
by the giving of a slave of a certain height. If a black man kills a
white, the family of the deceased may kill the 'owners' of the black
man. Recently, in Rahat in the Nagab, a black boy eloped with a white
girl. They were discovered and the girl killed by her family.
However, the boy survived and subsequently married a black girl.
Under the old system slaves could not sit in the shig at the same
level as their masters. In some places this is still observed, with
the role of the black people being to serve tea and coffee to the
white people. One man told me that there were some shig that he would
not go to because they would ask him who he 'belonged to'. But in
other shig this no longer happens and black and whites sit happily
together. In one shig in Gaza, the black sheikh presides, while white
people take responsibility for serving tea and coffee.

CHANGES BEFORE AND AFTER 1948
Slavery appears to have been an active institution under Ottoman
rule. The British Mandate of Palestine was established in 1917.
Slaves were not given release papers and there appears that the
British made little formal effort to end the system of slavery in
Palestine. Rather, as economic and social conditions changed, the
institution faded away in some areas, but still operated other areas
until the 1950s.
The groups of black people living in the Nagab and as refugees in
Gaza today are the descendants of slaves of the Bedouin. As the
peoples of Gaza and the Nagab have only been separated by frequently
closed borders since 1948 (when Israel was established and the
majority of the Nagab Bedouin became refugees in Gaza and Jordan),
the various communities retain kin ties.
Prior to 1948 a political and social system of tribal affiliation
operated in the Nagab. There were four gabail: the Gdarat, the
Azazme, the Turabeen and the Dlam. Of these, the Tarabeen probably
had the most black slaves. Each Gabila was sub-divided in ashira or
hamula, and these were, in turn, divided into extended families
('ayla). Within each 'ayla were individual families (asira).
Jama'an Abu Jurmi, of the Tarabeen, was a powerful black Sheikh to
whom all black people could turn. However, during the war of 1948 the
hamula of Abu Jurmi was dispersed and is now in Sinai, or possibly
Jordan or Gaza.
Many black people in the Nagab are now affiliated to the Abu Bilal.
There is some confusion amongst many Bedouin as to the origins of the
Abu Bilal: some people say that the Israelis invented the Abu Bilal
to represent all black Bedouin, and named the hamula after Bilal, the
Ethiopian companion of the Prophet Mohammed, because he was black.
However, the son of the current Sheikh of the Abu Bilal tells a
different story. Five or six generations ago a child, Bilal, was
stolen from Africa and taken to Sinai. The boy became a slave of the
family who purchased him, and although his own family found him and
asked him to come home, he was used to his new life and refused. He
married and had descendants, and up to now, the Abu Bilal have land
in Sinai. However, the descendants moved to the Nagab.
Bilal's grandson, Sulemain was very clever and a natural leader.
During and after the war of 1948 he was appointed as a Sheikh by the
Israelis and negotiated with the Israeli Military Authority and many
poor people, both black and white, asked him to speak on their
behalf. This was a time when all Bedouin had to be affiliated with a
Sheikh in order to get rations and travel permits. After 1950
Sheikhs, such as Sulemian, were formally appointed by the Israelis.
In 1952, when a census was carried out, many black people registered
as Abu Bilal, despite the fact that they had been attached to other
families.
For example, one elderly man told me how he took the opportunity of
registering as a member of Abu Bilal as a means of disassociating
himself from the descendants of his grandfather's masters who had
anyway lost their land. He explained: 'Sulemain Abu Bilal was a very
clever and strong man, although he could not read and write. Many
went to join him. Before 1948 Abu Bilal was a family. Bilal was a
slave living in Sinai.' The elderly man told me that he and his
family had lived a nomadic existence in the West Bank with the Abu
Bilal for about 10 years. That way of life ended with the war of 1967.
In some areas slavery as a way of life appears to have continued into
the 1950s. One black (sumr) man who came to Palestine as a migrant
worker from Egypt and was caught up in the war of 1948 recalls life
for black people attached to the Al Huzail. He had been working in
the orchards near Rishon with black people of the Abu Barakat. When
war broke out they fled back to their home area of the Al Huzail
where Rahat has now been constructed. When the Egyptian man arrived
there he found black people growing wheat for Al Huzail. They were
given food and, if they requested it for a special purpose, money.
Slaves and masters lived separately in black tents. There was no
intermarriage and no concubinage. The Egyptian man slept in the
Sheikh's shig and worked as a shepherd, but received no wages. The
Sheikh arranged his marriage to a white girl from Gaza. However,
after 1952 under the Israelis, when the census was taken, slavery as
an institution faded away.

After 1948 the most of the Nagab Bedouin lost their land and those
who had not left the area to become refugees in Gaza and Jordan, were
confined to a small military zone around Beersheba. Many Bedouin,
including black families appear to have moved around working in the
orchards to the north around Rishon, Rehovot and 'Atir or labouring
or herding animals in the West Bank. One family, now resident in
Rahat told me that they had moved nine times between 1956 and 1958.
After the 1967 war it became much harder to move around.
In the late 1960s the Israelis started developing planned settlements
to house the Nagab Bedouin. Currently, about half the Nagab Bedouin
live in these towns, while the other half have resisted moving and
remain in shanty settlements or in emcampments. Many black families
moved into the planned towns, the biggest of which is Rahat. Of about
30,000 people who live in Rahat, about a third are black (sumr) and
are concentrated in three areas of the town. Many, but not all, of
these families are registered as Abu Bilal.
MARRIAGE
Everybody I spoke to stressed that they had been told that in the
past marriage between black and white slaves was not permitted. In
addition, there seemed to be no evidence that slave owners took black
women as concubines. Rather black slaves were married to other black
slaves belonging to other families. Nevertheless, not all blacks were
slaves and most people of African origin living in Palestine have
some white ancestry. Family histories reveal intermarriage for
several generations, at least, between people of African origin and
other Palestinians.
In the twentieth century, particularly after 1948, there were
changes. Black men of slave descent married white women from fellahen
backgrounds from the West Bank, Gaza or Galilee, but never Bedouin
women. Rarely a white Bedouin man might marry a black Bedouin woman.
Hence, most people who are considered black are of mixed descent. The
male line is all-important in reckoning descent. I met one man of
black African appearance in Gaza. His family had come from the Nagab
after 1948. However, he claimed that technically he was white,
because his father's father had been white. Conversely, I met a man
of white appearance in Rahat, who was black because his father was
black, although his mother was white.
Black Bedouin also continued to marry other black Bedouin, usually
within the ashira, thereby conforming to the cultural preference in
Arab society to marry relatives. One man told me that cousin marriage
is becoming more common among black Bedouin. However, after 1956 it
became relatively easy for black Nagab Bedouin men to arrange
marriages with white fellahen women. One result was that left some
women without husbands. Therefore black Bedouin have recently started
marrying between ashira, for example between Abu Rqaiq and Abu Bilal.
Although the African Palestinians of Jeruslaem are a separate
community from the black Bedouin, some intermarriage occurs. For
example, one of the wives of a man of I met in Jerusalem was from a
family of Nagab Bedouin originally from Beersheba, but now living in
a refugee camp in Bethlehem.
However, many of the Jerusalem community have intermarried with
families from Jericho, some of whom are clearly of African origin,
although few people seem to know when or how Africans came to
Jericho. Several people told me that Jericho suited black people
because the weather was hot!
THE STATUS AND IDENTITY OF PALESTINIANS OF AFRICAN DESCENT
As the Bedouin of African descent have been geographically dispersed
and caught up as individuals and families in the enormous political
changes affecting the region, there has been little opportunity to
develop a sense of identity as Africans. Some are Israeli or
Jordanian citizens while others are registered as Palestinian
refugees and hold UNRWA papers. Others were dispersed to Lebanon and
Tunisia and have achieved military rank in the PLO. Many families are
dispersed and may not be able to meet often separated as they are by
frequently closed borders.
Living within such a complex political and daily reality, where
ethnic identity and citizenship are so important it is hardly
surprising that most black people do not have a developed sense of
being of African descent. Those still living in the Nagab spoke of a
changing sense of identity from being Bedouin to being Arab and /or
Palestinian. Although they were also Israeli citizens, many said that
there was little room for them within the Jewish state.
Many Palestinians of African descent are poor and disadvantaged, even
compared with other Palestinians. However, some black people (Sumr)
have achieved leadership roles. The roles of Al Hajj Jeddeh in
Jeruslaem and the Sheikh of the Abu Bilal have already been
discussed. In Gaza I also encountered, several people of African/
Nagab Bedouin or Al Rubayn descent who were prominent local leaders.
For example, one elderly Bedouin Sheikh hears cases and settles
disputes for both black and white people from his shig in Zuwaida.
His wife hears cases concerning women. Until closures made movement
difficult, the Sheikh returned to Tel Sabaa in the Nagab to hear
cases. He said that his family had played an important role in
dispute settlement since the days of the British. His work is
recognised by the Palestinian Authority and since 1995 he has been
registered under the Bedouin Association. Another black local leader,
I was told about but did not meet, is the Mukhtar who lives in the
Yaramouk area of Gaza who settles disputes within the Al Rubayn
community. In addition, many black Palestinians of Bedouin origin, in
Gaza and in Jordan, continue the military tradition of people of
African descent serving in the armed forces and police.
Over and beyond citizenship and rights, many black people associated
with the Bedouin talked about the strong affinity and sense of common
roots they felt with black people they encountered or saw on
television. Indeed, in the Nagab and Gaza it is common for all black
men to refer to each other as khali, or my mother's brother. One
woman explained that the term khal indicated respect and affection.
If somebody was referred as 'am (father's brother) it was a sign that
the speaker wanted something because there were obligations between
these categories of kin that did not exist between maternal uncle and
nephew. The term is used to address all black people and is
recognition of shared ancestry and common roots. People told me that
the term is used in relation to the Black Hebrews, who migrated from
the USA to live in Dimona as a Jewish group. However, 'khali' would
not be used to address Ethiopian Jews, who, although clearly African,
were more closely associated with the state of Israel.
Black people in the Nagab, Gaza and Jerusalem refer to themselves as
the sumr. This is stark contrast to many other Palestinians who
persist in referring to all black people as abed, a term that is
synonmous with 'slaves'. In addition, some older black people still
use the term 'abed' as a means of self referral, while younger people
avoid the term. Indeed, many younger people know little or nothing of
their history. One young woman upon hearing from her grandmother
tales of slavery was shocked and asked for reassurance that such
things only happened centuries ago.
Although some white Palestinians claim that 'abed' is not an abusive
name and that any connotations with slavery have been lost, others
are embarrassed to even hear the word mentioned. Clearly the issue of
the origins, identity and terminology used to describe people of
African origin is a highly sensitive one. When I spoke to some white
Palestinians they denied that black people were ever slaves in the
region, and said that rather they had been soldiers of the Ottoman
Empire. When I pointed out that this was not the case, one man almost
whispered to me 'we never talk about it'. Yet, white Palestinians by
persisting in calling people of African origin 'abed, perpetuate
discrimination.
The African Palestinians living in Jerusalem told me that they would
fight with anybody who referred to them as 'abed'. They added that
this does not often happen as their place within Palestinian society
and their role in the struggle is generally acknowledged by the
citizens of Jerusalem. They also clearly identify themselves as
African and Palestinian. However, they have different problems in
establishing their identity, particularly when applying for travel
documents. Unlike other Palestinians in the West Bank, the Jordanian
government does not recognise the African Palestinians as Jordanian
citizens. They cannot obtain Palestinian passports because they live
in Jerusalem which is excluded from the Oslo Agreement. As a result,
the majority of Africans living in Jerusalem have no passports, and
the only option for overseas travel is to obtain Israeli documents.
The majority refuse this option.
DISSEMINATION OF FINDINGS
It is hoped that this document will be of interest to individuals and
community groups in the Nagab, Gaza and Jerusalem that it will
engender a strengthened sense of identity and community so that they
will be encouraged to renew and strengthen contacts between
themselves.
If anybody wishes to correct or add to any of the contents of this
document please write to:
Dr Susan Beckerleg
Health Promotion Research Unit
London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine
Keppel Street
E mail : s.beckerleg@lshtm.ac.uk http://members.tripod.com/~yajaffar/african.html

Ala al-Din Street
Running East off al-Wad by an Ottoman fountain, Ala al-Din Street (also known as Bab al-Naazir Street, Inspector?s Gate Street, Bab al-Habs Street or Prison Gate Street) leads to the Bab al-Naazir (Inspector?s Gate) entrance of al-Haram.

The street has been dubbed ?the African Quarter? and is home to a close-knit black community of ?Afro-Palestinians? (a term used by members of the community themselves) who are descended from African Muslims who came to Jerusalem on pilgrimage when it was under British and Jordanian rule. Many of them live in the building on the right, Ribat al-Mansuri, whose two finely decorated windows belong to a large and recently restored main hall.

The monumental entrance arch of distinctive red and cream stone opens into a large and impressive vaulted porch - the inscription states that it was built in 1282 by Sultan al-Mansur. Opposite, Ribat Ala al-Din al-Basir is one of the earliest Mamluk buildings in Jerusalem. Founded in 1267 as a pilgrims? hospice, it has an arched gateway with stone benches (mastabas) on either side.

The cells around the inner courtyard were put to less religious use when the ribats were used as prisons by the Turks (al-Mansuri for those condemned to a sentence, al-Basir for those condemned to death) - a function they served until 1914, giving the street one of its alternative names, Bab al-Habs Street (Prison Gate Street). On the right of the courtyard is al-Basir?s burial chamber.

The building to the left of Bab al-Naazir itself, its columned entrance surmounted with ornate blue and green tiles, was constructed under British rule and houses the administrative centre of the Supreme Muslim Council, which looks after the affairs of the Islamic community in the West Bank and Gaza and controls access to the vaults under Temple Mount (such as Solomon?s Stables).

Note: None of the entrances to Temple Mount (al-Haram al-Sharif) from streets on the east side of al-Wad Road (Ala al-Din Street, Tariq Bab al-Hadid, and Souq al-Qattanin) can be used by non-Muslims, who must enter from Bab al-Magharba by the Western Wall.
http://www.vvtel.com/vvtravels/israel-is/007_guides/02_cities/jerusalem/travel-ND-M-din.html

posted 04 June 2004 03:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
No, you are wrong. The Phoenician Canaanites already had settlements along the eastern Mediterranean before Egytian conquest, so there is no evidence that Canaanites descended from Egyptian colonists.

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http://www.asor.org/AM/fridayabs03.html

posted 04 June 2004 03:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I do see what you mean, but how do you factor in the fact that Aksum was a kingdom of two-shores. Have there been genetic studies on the Aksumite remnants in Yemen. Ausar has posted elsewhere on Black Arab tribes in Yemen.

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There is proof of black ancestry in Yemen, but not among Yemeni Jews. The black ancestry is normally attributed to the Arab slave trade and to me this theory is not entirely true, for people do forget that Ethiopia actually conquered and rules southern Arabia. Al-Jahiz and the Peripulus to mention people in Arabia who seemed to be alligned with east Africans. Read this:

Ammianus Marcellinus: The Roman History, Book XIV.iv.1-7. , c. 380 CE

Book XIV.4: At this time also the Saracens, a race whom it is never desirable to have either for friends or enemies, ranging up and down the country, if ever they found anything, plundered it in a moment, like rapacious hawks who, if from on high they behold any prey, carry it off with a rapid swoop, or, if they fail in their attempt, do not tarry. And although, in recounting the career of the Prince Marcus, and once or twice subsequently, I remember having discussed the manners of this people, nevertheless I will now briefly enumerate a few more particulars concerning them.

Among these tribes, whose primary origin is derived from the cataracts of the Nile and the borders of the Blemmyae, all the men are warriors of equal rank; half naked, clad in colored cloaks down to the waist, overrunning different countries, with the aid of swift and active horses and speedy camels, alike in times of peace and war. Nor does any member of their tribe ever take plow in hand or cultivate a tree, or seek food by the tillage of the land; but they are perpetually wandering over various and extensive districts, having no home, no fixed abode or laws; nor can they endure to remain long in the same climate, no one district or country pleasing them for a continuance.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/arabia1.html

And look at this quote:

Here is a description of the Mahra:

The language is derived from the language of the Sabaeans, Minaeans and Himyarites. The
Mahra with other Southern Arabian peoples seem aligned to the Hamitic race of north-east Africa.

The Mahra are believed to be descended from the Habasha, who colonised Ethiopia in the first millennium BC (WT p. 198). Many Bait Kathir understand the Mahri language. The Qarra and Mahra have almost beardless faces, fuzzy hair and dark pigmentation (WP171). This contrasts to the northern Arabs who are Semitic Caucasian.
http://www.globalconnections.co.uk/pdfs/MAHRAArabs.pdf

In the case of the Mahra, I believe them not to be descendants of Africans but the original peoples of southern Arabia. Their language was spoken BEFORE Arabic was spoken and they still speak it today, those who have not been Arabized. The Mahra are one of those dark proto-Midean people I was talking about earlier.

posted 04 June 2004 03:18 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by S.Mohammad:
There is proof of black ancestry in Yemen, but not among Yemeni Jews.

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Thought Writes: