posted 16 November 2003 07:52 PM            

Are Egyptians arabs?
I personally do not think so. We know Egyptians have a very long history and their civilization predates the time which arabs could not even imagine of!
There is no doubt that not only Egyptians but all the nations in the world have come to contact with each other throughout the centuries in the past either through territorial conflicts or tarding. Those conflicts and contacts have made it possible for cultural values to be exchanged and passed to each other in many cases but in none of those events which preceded the attack of arabs to Egypt, the language of Egyptians or their religion was the target of attack. Egyptians have had their own language and culture and their civilization was far more progressive than any arab could imagine. What did Egyptians gain by giving up their language and become arabs?
I am an Iranian who came to this board just by accident! We all know that Iranians and Egyptians have a lot in common and share a lot historically. About 2500 years ago, Cyrus reached to your territory in the process of his expansionism which was a common trend among rulers in those days but I have not heard of imposition of any of the Persian cultural values or religion to Egyptians at that time. neither I have heard anything about imposition of cultural values by Egyptians to other nations which they came in contact with at any time.
My question is if "humanitarian values" of arabic culture called islam was so overwhelming then why the competing civilizations like Romans and Greeks which did not come in contact with arabic cultural values progressed and flouriched ragrding humanitarian values during time but Egyptians and other civilizations which were destroyed by arabs to give them a god remained behind?
Why is the notion of "rule by the people" is hard to grasp among all of our nations which have been effected by attack of arabs in one way or another? Don't we deserve democracy? respect? what is holding us back from the civilized world? Take a look at our islamic world! is this "westerners" fault that we are all miserable and busy with our prayers while the rest of the world is moving with speed of light? or is it something that we should know about ourselves? are we really the best people of the world? What happened that we are left behind from the civilized world? there are a lot of questions which should be addressed and I believe the first thing that every Egyptian as well as every Iranian should be aware of, is their true national identity which has it's roots in their history not their religion! arabs, who were not tallented enough to learn any other language, pushed others to speak in their language so they can control them better after they conquered their territories. as a result, Egyptians became arab speaking nation like others in the same region. and they not only lost their language but also their national identity! up to a point which a great leader like Jaml Abdol-Naser becomes propagator of arab league and arab cause! isn't it time yet for Egyptians to think of their true national identity? why shouldn't we stay Egyptians, Iranians, etc.. no matter the religion? has speaking arabic made arab speaking nations a strong union? has islam made islamic nations a strong union? I do not believe the answer is positive in either case!

posted 17 November 2003 12:09 PM            

Maybe in Egypt children should have less biased history lessons. As if the nation was Islamic since the Pharaonic times.
But then again, how can one turn public opinion towards this. I guess this ideas live mainly among coptic and other christians (as is my husband who still feels that arabs came to dominate his culture, language and religion). All too sensitive nowadays.

posted 17 November 2003 07:44 PM            

I am really glad to see the interest in the subject. I do not mean to raise the issue regarding what the word arab means in order justify my argument over the benefit of reviving the supressed nationalism sentiments among the nations which have been target of assimilation by arab conquerers. It does not really matter what the word arab means. what is important is the decline in the civilization of those nations which have been targeted with the excuse of spreading equality and brotherhood under the name of religion while in fact the greed was the most important motive behind all of that. We may talk more about this later but for now let me direct to to an article which may be of your interest:

Egyptian ( Mesr al-Um): Pharos give up Arabization
Egypt, Politics, 11/6/2003

Scores of Egyptian intellectuals and vocational members formed a party called "Egypt the motherland" ( Mesr al-Um) for dismantling Egypt from its Arab identity.

Lawyer Mohsin Lutfi said that he will apply to the Parties affairs at the Shoura council after Eid al-Fiter for licensing the party. He explained "we are a party which says: we are Egyptians and not Arabs.. The Arabs are our friends and neighbors and we have common destiny.. but we are not Arabs."

However, there are in Egypt some 18 political parties with the majority are margined and some of them are frozen over differences among their leaders, but there is no one party among them that denies Egypt's Arabization or raises doubt on this issue despite the fact many of them call in its programs to revive the values of the ancient Egyptian civilizations.

Lutfi, the nephew of the late liberal intellectual Ahmad Lutfi al-Sayyed said "we are Egyptians speaking the Arabic language for historical reasons like the Franchophony in Africa which speaks French. But no one says he is French."

Lutfi calls for reviving the Heoglyphic and Coptic languages and has been teaching scores of students the Heroglyphic language in his house since 10 years. He studied Heroglyphic language at the French Surrbornne university after he had graduated in 1948 from the law faculty, Fouad 1st university ( the current Cairo university). He also studied at London's university for more than 3 years.

The Egyptian writer Jamal Badawi strongly criticized the idea of the new party in the Egyptian daily al-Wafd issued on Tuesday, saying "those of the Pharos trend do not care what form of government there is, rather what is of concern to them is to cancel the Arab era from Egypt's history." He added they "are not brave to show off their hostility to Islam, and therefore they concentrate their arrows on Arabization, and put the Arabs in one bunch along with the foreign forces which occupied Egypt."

Lutfi said "the idea of implanting this party emerged when we saw in the talks of President Mubark an inclination to the majority party which he presides over towards democracy permiting the foundation of new parties."

One of the founders of the party, Talaat Radwan, said we will ask for "abrogating the word ( al-Arabyia ) from Egypt's name to become "The Republic of Egypt"instead of "the Arab republic of Egypt." In the 1970s the late Egyptian president Anwar al-Sadat abrogated the name of the United Arab republic launched by the late President Gamal Abdul Nasser for use on Egypt and Syria following their unity of 1958 and Egypt kept the name after the cessation.

Radwan, a critic and story writer said relations with the Arabs will be economic and in the course of cooperation relations like any relations with any other people." He added "our call is separate from what has been provoked since years of the failure of the Arab nationalism project adopted by Abdul Nasser." He added that "relations with Israel will be on equal footing.. Our principle is to have pride on the Egyptian nationality and our objective is to be a state preserving its national soil against any aggression and stands against any aggression on any country in the region. We are with the rights of the Palestinian people to liberate their homeland and establish own state and also with the right of the Iraqi people to liberate their soil."
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/031106/2003110624.html

best regards

posted 18 November 2003 04:11 AM            

The Arabic and Turkic Eras:
The destruction of the Library of Alexandria
Arab and Turkic Dynasties, 640-1798 A.D.
Assault on Coptic Language, Culture, and Monuments
Resistance for Oppression
Flourishing and Tribulation
Modern Era, After the Ottomans:
Copts in the 19th and 20th Centuries
Epilogue

Who are the Copts ?
The word Copt is an English word taken from the Arabic word Gibt or Gypt. The Arabs after their conquest of Egypt in 641 A.D. called the indigenous population of Egypt as Gypt from the Greek word Egyptos or Egypt. The Greek word Egyptos came from the ancient Egyptian words Ha-Ka-Ptah or the house or temple of the spirit of God Ptah, one of the major ancient Egyptian Gods. The word Copt or Coptic simply means Egyptian, however the Muslim population of Egypt calls themselves Arabs. In contemporary usage, the word Copt or Coptic refers to the Christian population of Egypt.

Synopsis:
The Coptic people are the descendants of the ancient Egyptians. The known history of the Copts or Egypt starts with King Mina or Menas the first King, who united the northern and southern kingdoms of Egypt circa 3050 B.C. The ancient Egyptian civilization under the rule of the Pharaohs lasted for approximately 3000 years. Many Copts accepted the teachings of Christianity, possibly because the ancient Egyptian religions believed in life after death. This is evidenced by their elaborate efforts to preserve the bodies of the dead by embalming or mummification. Like other early Christians throughout the Roman Empire, the Copts suffered from the persecution perpetrated against the new religion. Many Copts shed their blood in testimony for Jesus Christ. Saint Mina or Menas is one of the major Coptic saints. He was martyred 309 A.D. The Copts history continues through the present as Father Mina the Anchorite led the Coptic Orthodox Church, who was named as Pope Cyril the 6th 1971 A.D. He is considered to be a contemporary saint and among the great leaders of the Coptic Orthodox Church. The Coptic or Egyptian history continues from circa 3050 B.C. through the present. Many cotemporary Copts continue to carry ancient Egyptian names such as Mina, Ahmos, and Ramesses for men, Isis, Nofert, Nefertiti, and Nitocris for women. Two examples are noteworthy about the influence of the ancient Egyptian civilization on the western civilization. The first example is that the present western or Gregorian calendar has its roots in the solar ancient Egyptian calendar. The second is that the modern name of the science of Chemistry gets its name from the ancient name of Egypt, or "Chimie" in the Coptic language.

Historical Outline:

Pharaohs Era:
The ancient Egyptian civilization evolved over approximately three thousand years. Thirty Pharaohnic dynasties are known to have ruled Egypt. Egyptologists around the world continue to study and rediscover many of the facets of history and life in ancient Egypt. Dates prior to the Persian invasion are approximate and Egyptologists differ in their estimates of these dates.

Archaic Period, Dynasties I-II:
King Mina is the first historical king of Egypt. He unified southern and northern Egypt under his rule circa 3050 B.C. He founded a new city Memphis, and built a temple for the Ptah, the God of creation for ancient Egypt. The succession of females to the throne of Egypt was declared valid during the second dynasty. Early ancient Egyptian medical texts and the book of the dead were written as early as the time of the second dynasty.
Old Kingdom, Dynasties III-VI: Pharaohs of the Old Kingdom were known to be great warriors and builders 2663-2195 B.C. The kings of the 4th Pharonic dynasty Kheops or Khufu, Khpheren or Khafre, and Mykerinus or Menkaure built the pyramids. Khafre is also believed to be the builder of the Sphinx. The Sphinx is hewn out of the living rock, but pieces of stone have been added where necessary. Originally there probably were ornaments on the head, the whole of which was covered with limestone and the face was colored red. E.A. Wallis Budge, the famous Egyptologist, indicated " the conditions of the sphinx deteriorated due to the savage destruction of its features by the Muslim rulers of Egypt". The last ruler of the sixth dynasty was Queen Nitocris, most probably the first female ruler allover the world. She enlarged the pyramid of Mykerinus and covered it with slabs of granite. The Old Kingdom was followed by the first intermediate period, dynasties VII-X.

Middle Kingdom, Dynasties XI-XII:
Egypt's prosperity and civilization continued under the Pharaohs of the middle kingdom 2066-1650 B.C. Thebes emerged as the capital of Egypt. King Amenemhat I built a temple for Amen Ra, the King of the Gods, at Thebes. During his reign examples of ancient Egyptian literature were written, the story of Senehet or Senuhi. Subsequent to the Middle Kingdom time, Egypt was weakened during the second intermediate period. This allowed invaders from Asia, the Hyksos, also known as shepherd kings to rule northern Egypt, dynasties XIII-XVII, 1650-1535 B.C.

New Kingdom, Dynasties XVIII-XX:
The Egyptian kings of southern Egypt ultimately liberated Egypt from the Hyksos rule. King Ahmose or Amosis defeated the last of the Hyksos, and initiated the 18th dynasty and the new kingdom 1550-1064 B.C. This is considered to be the golden era of ancient Egypt. During this era, Egypt ruled an empire that extended from Syria to the north to Nubia in the south. Several Pharaohs distinguished themselves both in military conquests and civilian achievements e.g. Thuthmosis III 1479-1424 B.C. and Ramesses II 1279-1212 B.C. King Akhenaten 1360-1343 B.C. established a monotheistic religion to worship one God Aten. Many people all over the world have seen the famous king Tut's treasures and golden funerary mask. King Tut or Tutenkhamun 1343-1333 B.C. was Akhenaten's son in law. He reversed his father in law's one God worship back to the worship of the ancient Egyptian gods.

Equality, Arts and Knowledge:
The equality of men and women and respect for the role of women in the family and society at large were evident in the ancient Egyptian culture, and continue at present in the contemporary Coptic culture. As indicated above women as well as men ruled Egypt. Queen Nitocris, the last ruler of the sixth dynasty was probably the first female ruler allover the world. King Ahmose's mother Queen Ahhotep II and his wife Queen Nefertari were major supporters of the liberation wars against the Hyksos. Achievements of Queen Ahhotep were recorded on a stele at Karnack. The stela praised Queen Ahhotep as the " one who cares for Egypt. She looked after her soldiers; she guarded her; she brought back her fugitives, and collected together her deserters; she pacified Upper Egypt and expelled her rebels". Queen Nefertari, Ahmose's wife was a key figure at the beginning of the 18th dynasty. Another famous Queen is Hatshepust who ruled Egypt 1472-1457 B.C.
Knowledge, arts, and literature flourished in ancient Egypt. The Egyptian temples were centers for both religious and secular learning and libraries, e.g. Ramesses II scared library. Some scholars compared ancient Egyptian poetry to some of the verses of the book of psalms. This should come as no surprise, as history indicates a lot cultural and trade exchanges between Egypt and the Israelites. The Old Testament shows the relationship in many of its books, e.g. the migration of Jacob and his sons to Egypt, the exodus of the Israelites out of Egypt led by Moses, King Solomon's marriage to an Egyptian princess, and the migration of the Israelites to Egypt after Jeremiah the prophet time.
Subsequent to the new kingdom several dynasties ruled Egypt including Libyan and Kushite dynasties, the period is known as the third intermediate period, dynasties XXI-XXV. King Taharqa, a famous kushite King ruled both Egypt and what is now northern Sudan 690-664 B.C. He built beautiful monuments both in Egypt and Kush. Taharqa conducted an active foreign policy against the then growing military power of Assyria. Also, the bible cites Taharqa's name in 2 Kings 19.9 and Is 37.9, as cotemporary to King Hezekiah of Judah and referred to the conflict between Judah and Assyria.

Late Period, Dynasties XXVI-XXX:
In the Saite period 664-525 B.C. many Greeks immigrated to Egypt to trade, learn or settle. King Psammetichus I hired Ionian and Carian Greek mercenaries for the Egyptian army. Pythagoras, the Greek mathematician and Herodotus the Greek historian visited Egypt to learn about the Egyptian knowledge and arts at the time of the Persian occupation of Egypt. Several alliances against the Persian incursions were concluded between Egypt and Greek cities such as Sparta and Athens. The Persians occupied Egypt 525-404 B.C. and later on 343-332 B.C. Some historians record atrocities committed by the Persian rulers against the Egyptians, however the Persians also appreciated the high caliber of the Egyptian art. They used many Egyptian artists to work on Persian palaces and temples. A statue for Darius I, the Persian King, was excavated from the ruins of his capital Susa, Iran. This statue shows the influence of Egyptian art and includes inscriptions in hieroglyphics.

Hellenic Era:
Alexander the Great 332-323 B.C. defeated the Persian Empire. He established a new great city in Egypt, Alexandria, to immortalize his name. The Greek Ptolemaic dynasty ruled Egypt from 305-30 B.C. The Romans under Ocatvian Augustus Caesar defeated the last Ptolemaic Queen Cleopatra VII and her Roman husband Anthony. Egypt was annexed as a province of the Roman Empire 30 B.C.- 641 A.D. The Greeks followed by the Romans, though they ruled Egypt, were admirers of the Egyptian civilization, knowledge and culture. Greek and Roman rulers in fact rebuilt many of the pharaonic temples of southern Egypt in the Hellenic era. The Egyptian civilization influence was so great during the Hellenic era to the extent that the worship of Isis the Egyptian goddess had adherents allover the Roman Empire. Alexandria, Egypt became a major center for trade, learning and culture in the Hellenic Era.

The Library of Alexandria:
King Ptolemy I, on the advice of Demetrios of Phaleron created the ancient library of Alexandria and Museum circa 285 B.C. Among the famous scholars of the time were Eratosthenes, Euclid, the father of geometry, Aristomachos of Samos, the first astronomer who tried to measure the size and relative distance to the moon and sun, Strato of Lapsakos in the study of physics. Ktesibios of Alexandria designed remarkable pneumatic and hydraulic devices. Herophilos of Chalecedon, Ptolemy II physician made major discoveries in human anatomy, Dioskorides wrote medical treatise following the Hippocratic tradition, and Zopoyros a pharmacologist developed famous prescriptions. The medicine and sciences of the era as might be expected built on the pharaonic medicine and its great expertise in the human body thanks to centuries of embalming experience. Among the great achievements of the old library of Alexandria is the Old Testament's first translation from Hebrew to Greek. This translation is known as the Septuagint, and was popular and used extensively by the early Christians.

Christianity in Egypt:
The bible tells us the story of the flight of the holy family to Egypt from Herod. The holy family sojourn in Egypt included several places in both northern and southern Egypt. Saint Mark the Evangelist introduced Christianity into Egypt. He was martyred at Alexandria, Egypt. Saint Mark is the first leader of the Coptic Orthodox Church, and was followed by his first convert in Alexandria, Annianus circa 62 A.D. An unbroken succession of leaders for the Coptic Orthodox Church starts with Saint Mark and continues to the present Pope Shenouda III. He is the 117th successor of Saint Mark.

Early Coptic Philosophers:
The early Christian Egyptians or Copts followed the ancient traditions of learning and established a theological school or the Catechetical School. Athenagoras of Athens was one of one of the professors at the library of Alexandria's museum, which was a major stronghold of intellectual paganism at Alexandria. He like many other pagan Platonic philosophers of his time was interested in Christianity and desired to expose its fallacies. He studied Christian writings to refute the new religion. However, his study led him to be convinced with the truth of Christianity. After Athenagoras 's conversion to Christianity, he continued his philosophical teaching at the museum. He became a champion to defend Christianity and addressed his defense of Christianity or " Apology" to the Roman emperors Marcus Aurelius and Commodus circa 176-177 A.D. Pataenus and Clement of Alexandria were indicated to have studied with Athenagoras; and both like most Copts of their time had been well educated in all the learning of the ancients, as well as in the truths of Christianity. Under the rule of the Emperor Commodus, the newly established Coptic Catechetical School was led Pantaenus circa 190 A.D. Clement of Alexandria followed Pantaenus as head of the Catechetical school. Oregon or Oreganos was one of the most celebrated and prolific Coptic philosophers who led the Catechetical school. These philosophers and others defended early Christianity against the pagan and later heretic teachings. For example, the Alexandrian Catechetical School also used the method of interpretation or "exegesis" developed by the pagan scholars of the Alexandrian library museum. Further more, Origen, whose name means, born of Horus the ancient Egyptian God, not only translated the bible and developed the Hexapla, he also ventured in philosophical speculations that influenced Christian scholars and philosophers for ages. One of his philosophical speculations is that GOD has unlimited mercy to the extent that ultimately all creation, including non- believers in Christ and even Satan, will be saved. The Coptic and other Orthodox Churches did not follow the speculative interpretation of Oregon on salvation, however the Roman Catholic Church belief in purgatory may have been to some extent influenced by Origen's interpretation. Another Coptic philosopher was Hepatia. She was a respected pagan philosopher known for her erudition and knowledge.
Hepatia met an unfortunate death at the hands of an unruly mob. Her murder occurred during clashes between Christians and pagans during the region of the Roman Emperor Theodosius around 390 A.D.

Monasticism:
The ancient Egyptian religious traditions included temple devotees who led celibate lives of poverty, pursuit of knowledge and prayers. The story of Ptolemios and Harmais or Haremhab tells us about two devotees or monks who led celibate lives at the Serapeum temple. They were cotemporaries of Queen Cleopatra. Following in the footsteps of the ancient Egyptians, Copts started Christian monasticism. Saint Paul of Thebes led a solitary life of prayer and asceticism in the Egyptian desert. Saints Amon followed by Saint Macaruis led monastic lives in the desert valleys of Scets and Niteria. Monasticism was introduced to Europe by Saint Athanasius's book about the Life of Saint Anthony.

Schism between the Churches and Efforts towards Reconciliation:
The Coptic Church of Alexandria worked with the Church of Rome defended the Christian faith against several early Christian heresies, e.g. the Arian heresy. The Nicene Creed, still used by most of the Christian Churches allover the world, was originally written by a Coptic young deacon, Athanasius of Alexandria. The Council of Nicea 325 A.D adopted the creed. However, the council, Calchedon, debated the nature of Christ in 451 A.D., and ended up in the schism of the Coptic Orthodox Church from the Churches of Rome and Constantinople. Different explanations are given for this schism, ranging from political motives, to inaccurate translation from Latin and Greek and visa versa, to clash of some of the personalities involved. Attempts to reconcile the views of the churches continued for centuries and almost succeeded at times but not quite. A 19th century Protestant scholar studied the issues of this schism. He concluded that both the Coptic and western churches believe in the same dogma, but the choice of words was problematic. It is heartening to witness that the cotemporary movement for reconciliation and unity among the Churches in the late 20th century. The Coptic Orthodox Church joined the International Council of Churches, and friendly exchanges and dialogue were pursued. As the dialogue among Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant Churches continues, there seems to be a common movement towards the unity of faith as contrasted with the unity of the Churches.

The Arabic and Turkic Eras:

The wars between the East-Roman Empire and The Persian Empire in the 6th and 7th centuries weakened both empires. The Muslim Arabs attacked both empires in the 7th century. After their conquest of the East-Roman provinces of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel, they invaded Egypt in December 641 A.D. Egypt was one of the precious crown jewels of the East-Roman Empire. It was the breadbasket of Rome first then Constantinople. It was a fertile land that produced and exported wheat, corn, wine, oil, textiles, glass, cosmetics, and medicinal and chemical products of the time. The population Copts is estimated to be about 9 millions at the time the Arabs conquest.

The destruction of the Library of Alexandria:
Scholars differed in views on how the ancient library of Alexandria was destroyed. However, recent research by Luciano Canfora concluded that the Arab general Amer ibin Alass at the orders of the Arab Caliph Omar ibin Alkhatab did the destruction of the library. The story of the Arabs destruction of the library indicates that it took them six months to burn the books in about one thousand public bathes in Alexandria.

Arab and Turkic Dynasties, 640-1798 A.D.:
Several Muslim Arab and Turkic dynasties ruled Egypt from 640 A.D. to 1798 A.D. The French under Napoleon Bonaparte defeated the Ottomans and the Mumelukes rulers of Egypt in 1798 A.D. The Arab dynasties included the Umayyad (660-751 A.D.) and the Abbasids ( 751-880 A.D.) The Turkic dynasties include the Tolonides ( 880-904 A.D.) and the Akhsids ( 904-913 A.D.). They were followed by the Fatimites (913-1171 A.D.), a Shiite Arab dynasty. They were followed by Turkic, Ayubides (1171-1250 A.D.), the Mamelukes (1250-1517 A.D.) and the Ottomans (1517-1798 A.D.).
After the Arabs conquest 641 A.D., the start of their rule was relatively mild. The Arab rulers primary interest was in exacting the maximum financial gain out of the rich land of Egypt. John of Nikiu in his chronicles indicates that Amer ibin Alass, after the conquest of Egypt, " increased the taxes to the extent of 22 batr of gold till all the people hid themselves owing to the greatness of the tribulation, and could not find the wherewithal to pay." The Ommyiads followed by the other dynasties instituted heavy taxes including poll tax or Algyzya, tribute and different exactions. At times the Arab rulers found it convenient to throw prominent Copts, e.g. a Bishop or Pope, in jail and request ransom to release them. The Umayyad Caliph Suliman ibin abed Almalek reflected this policy, in writing his appointed ruler of Egypt " to milk the camel until it gives no more milk, and until it milks blood". Though some of the Arab rulers were moderate, most were oppressive, cruel and committed a lot of atrocities against the Coptic population. The ultimate policy of the Muslim Arab rulers changed gradually from maximum financial gain to Isalmization either through incentives of reduced taxation, or by outright violence and force. Arab and Turkic rulers from different dynasties continued to levy heavy taxation to impoverish the Copts, instituted policies to eradicate the Coptic culture, language, leadership, and initiated violence and pogroms against the Coptic population.

Assault on Coptic Language, Culture, and Monuments:
The assault on culture that was initiated by the destruction of the Alexandria library continued by the Umayyads who decreed the use the Arabic language instead of Coptic in the governance of Egypt. It took centuries for Arabic to replace Coptic as the spoken language of the land. The Coptic language continued in general use until the 13th century.
Unlike the Greek or Roman rulers who maintained and rebuilt some of the ancient Egyptian temples, several Islamic rulers destroyed and pillaged the ancient Egyptian temples and Churches. The marble and porphyry pillars obtained by the destruction of many ancient temples and churches were used to build palaces, mosques, and at times just left a trail of destruction. Sultan El Aziz attempted to destroy the great pyramids of Giza circa 1193 A.D. He gathered a large labor force that attempted to destroy the pyramids for eight months. At the end of which, they succeeded in only destroying a part of the casing of the pyramid and made a small breach in one side. Fortunately the great effort needed convinced El Aziz to abandon the destruction of the pyramids.

Resistance for Oppression:
The Arab's oppression led the Copts to several rebellions, but these rebellions failed to break the yoke of oppression or achieve independence. The Copts in the eastern Delta fought against the Ommayyds oppression in 725 A.D. A large-scale Coptic revolt against the Abbasids took place circa 815 A.D. El Maamoun, the Abbasid Caliph, had to bring in a large army with elephants to conquer the Copts revolution of 815 A.D. Even as late as 1176 A.D. the Copts of the city of Koptos revolted against the oppression of the Turkic rulers. The policy of heavy taxation, pillage, and violence was also accompanied by forced migration of Copts to other parts of the Islamic Empire, and settlement of Muslim Arabs into Egypt. As a result, many of the Copts were forced into Islam to escape the continued oppression and heavy taxation. The forced Isalmization policy was followed by most of the Arab rulers, and later on also by most of the Mamluks and Turkic rulers. Gradually, the population of Muslims increased and the Copts decreased. The population of the Copts decreased from 9 million at the time of the Arabs conquest 641 A. D. approximately 700,000 at the early 1900's.

Flourishing and Tribulations:
Though persecution of the Copts by the Arabs, Mamluks and Turks was the norm rather than the exception, most of these rulers needed the knowledge of the Copts to govern the country and collect taxes. The history of the Islamic era shows a vicious cycle in which the Muslim rulers hire Copts because of their knowledge, skill and honesty to administer the affairs of the government of Egypt. Accordingly, the Copts do well and prosper, and ultimately the Muslim rulers change their minds for different reasons and expel the Copts from government jobs, confiscate their property, put them in jail, and a times put them to death. As the affairs of the government become erratic without the Copts knowledge, the rulers return back to hire the Copts again and so on. Under the rule of the Fatimite dynasty, one of the rulers was in fact insane. El Hakem hired several Copts in his employment. El Hakem however, decided to either to force his Coptic employees into Islam or kill them. Two prominent Copts Fahed iben Ibrahim, and Yuhana iben Nagah, were among El Hakem's employees, who accepted death rather than converting to Islam 1004 A.D. During the reign of moderate rulers and peaceful times, many Copts managed to excel in literature and the arts. Among the famous writers during the Ayubide dynasty, were the Iben Al Asaal brothers. Though the rule of the Mameluks produced many beautiful monuments, they were bloodthirsty and extremely oppressive for the Egyptians both Muslims and Copts. It is not unusual to read about pogroms launched against the Copts during the Mamluks time. A supposedly devout unknown Fakir, who would instigate a Muslim mob after the Friday Muslim prayers to attack the Copts, their homes and businesses, usually started the pogroms. However, the Mameluks also needed the services of the Copts to run the affairs of the government. Ibrahim Algawhery was the Chief Clerk of the Mameluks Abuel dahab and Ibrahim Bey 1795 A.D. Effectively he was the prime minister of Egypt and he was so influential to the extent that the Muslim historian Algaberti wrote about him and his achievements. Later on in the early 20th century another prominent Copt Botrous Galli became the prime Minister of Egypt under the rule of the British rule.

Modern Era, After the Ottomans:
After the French left Egypt, the country returned back under the rule of the Ottomans and Mamlukes. An Albanian officer of the Ottoman army, Mohamed Ali, managed to become the ruler of Egypt under the Ottoman Empire 1805 A.D. Mohamed Ali was a smart though ruthless ruler. He managed to massacre the Mamlukes and get rid of the Ottoman occupation army. He introduced western style education, industry, and new crops. His rule did not care much about religion as much as about competence. He hired a lot of Armenians and Copts to help his government. He challenged the rule of the Ottoman Empire, but lost as the European powers intervened on the behalf of the Ottomans 1845 A.D. Egypt became semi-independent under the Ottomans Empire, then under the British Empire 1882 A.D. and was ruled by the family of Mohamed Ali through 1952. A group of army officers led a coup d' etat that ended the rule of King Farouk, the last ruler of the Mohamed Ali family. The coup brought Nasser and his fellow officers to power. He pursued a socialist domestic policy, alliance with Soviet Union, and aggressive conflicts against the West and Israel. Nasser's socialist policies and conflicts with the West resulted in severe economic hardships for Egypt. After Nasser's death 1970, Sadat assumed the presidency of Egypt. Sadat reversed his predecessor's policy, expelled the soviet advisors, followed a more pro-western approach, and pursued peace with Israel. After a militant Islamic group assassinated Sadat in 1981, Mobarek assumed the presidency in Egypt until the present time. President Mobarek continues to follow a pro-western policy, and brokered several peace initiatives in collaboration with the U.S. between the Israel and the Palestinians.

Copts in the 19th and 20th Centuries:
The poll tax, Algyzia was finally abolished in 1815 A.D. This gave some relief to the Copts in the 19th century-mid 20th century. This period saw a modest revival and renewal. A Coptic leader, Pope Cyril 4th a reformist followed the ancient Egyptian or Coptic tradition of respect for knowledge and learning in the 19th century. He looked to the western knowledge for inspiration. He established two schools with a western schooling system, and imported a new printing press to disseminate information. He started an effort o collect and catalog Coptic music and hymns. The Coptic music has been handed down orally from the days of the ancient Egyptian temples. It is believed that the Egyptian Government agents poisoned him and he died in 1861 A.D., as they were concerned about his reformist movement. The Copts in the 19th and early 20th century worked together with their Muslim compatriots to achieve independence and democracy in Egypt. They participated in the revolt of 1919 against the British rule after WWI. Several political Coptic leaders participated in the short-lived democratic parliaments in the early to mid 20th century.
World War I resulted in the defeat of the last Islamic Empire, the Ottoman Empire. The last Caliph of the Muslims; the Ottoman Sultan was replaced by a secular president in modern Turkey. Though Turkey has and continues to progress as a secular nation, the impact of a superior western culture and influence was felt in many Muslim countries. A militant fundamentalist Islamic called the Muslim Brothers was initiated in 1920's. Other groups also followed, e.g. the society for Muslim Youth. These movements aimed at resisting the influence of the superior western culture. These movements espoused a more conservative interpretation of Islam, and many of them also espoused violence against the Copts that raged on and off for years. Nasser became President of Egypt shortly after an army coup in 1952. Though Nasser cared mostly about power more than religion, many of his protégé's espoused the more fundamentalist Islamic teaching of the Muslim Brothers. The Nasser government followed a socialist regime and nationalized most of the private enterprises, which hit the Copts a lot harder as they depended on private businesses for their livelihood. The economic pressures and resurgent discrimination led many Copts to start immigration to countries such as the U.S.A., Canada, and Australia in the 1960's. Active and successful Coptic-Americans live at present at most of the large metropolitan areas of the U.S.A. The same applies for many of the large metropolitan areas in many of the western countries.
President Sadat was successful in establishing a peace treaty with Israel. However, in his struggle for power against the Nasserite factions, he encouraged the militant Islamic groups in Egypt. In the 1980s, the militant fundamentalist Islamic movement resurgence was accompanied by renewed and escalated assaults on the Copts in Egypt. The Militants instigated several violent episodes against the Copts and western tourists, attacked, sacked and burned churches and Coptic businesses. G. Kepel in his study of Muslim extremism in Egypt indicated that the Militants financed the assassination of President Sadat using gold robbed from Coptic-owned goldsmith stores. On the political side, the Islamic Militant groups called for changing the laws from the civil laws to the Islamic code or Sharia. Their claim is that the return to Sharia provides a solution instead of the western approach of democracy and free enterprise. It would return the Islamic countries to the glory of the medieval age Islamic Empires. However, the return to the Islamic code essentially deprives the non-Muslims including the Copts from equal rights as compared with the Muslims and subjects them to formal discrimination. In the 1990's attacks on Churches, property and businesses of the Copts have been on the increase. Abduction of young Coptic girls and forced Islamization increased. Pogroms have been frequent lately. In the early days of the year 2000 a pogrom was initiated by the militants Islamic groups resulted in the murder of about 21 Copts, and the destruction of many Coptic homes, businesses and a Church in the village of Al Kosheh in Southern Egypt. Similar incidents and persecution continues. Even obtaining permits to build or maintain churches is getting a lot more difficult. The sad irony is that the laws used to mire requests for permits for churches are rooted in the laws of the Ottoman Empire. Though the Ottoman Empire has expired after its defeat in World War I, the Egyptian government bureaucracy spurred by the militants teachings uses the defunct Ottoman law called the Hamayouni decree against the Copts free expression and practice of their religion.

Epilogue:
The heritage and legacy of the Copts and their ansctors the ancient Egyptians continue to be manifested all over the world in every day life in the use of the Gregorian calendar, a descendant of the ancient Egyptian solar calendar. The Coptic name of ancient Egypt " Chimie" has lent itself to the modern Chemistry. Ancient Egypt continues to provide inspiration for cotemporary mystics and followers of new age beliefs. Modern artists continue to be inspired by ancient Egypt. In recent years, architects have taken renewed interest in Egypt and the forms of its stylishly pyramid, continue to be applied to many public and commercial buildings.

Suggested Reading:

1- The Mummy, Funeral Rites & Customs in Ancient Egypt, by Ernest A. Wallis
Budge, reprint of 1893 edition by Senate Studio Editions 1995
2- The Twilight of Ancient Egypt, First Millennium B.C.E., by Karol Mysliwiec, translated by David Lorton, Cornell University Press2000
3- Egypt in The Age of Cleopatra, by Michel Chauveau, translated by David Lorton, Cornell University Press, 2000
4- Women in Ancient Egypt, by Gay Robins, Harvard University Press, 1996
5- Women and Society in Greek and Roman Egypt: A Source Book by Jane Rowlandson, Cambridge University Press, 1998
6- The Chronicle of John Coptic Bishop of Nikiu (circa 690 A.D.), translated by Robert Henry Charles, reprint from 1916 edition, APA-Philo Press Amsterdam, Holland
7- The Vanished Library, A Wonder of The Ancient World, by Luciano Canfora, University of California Press
8- The Story of The Church of Egypt, Volumes I and II, by Edith L. Butcher, reprint of 1897 edition by AMS Press Inc, New York, N.Y 1975
9- Coptic Egypt, by Murad Kamil, Le Scribe Egyptien, 1968
10- Traditional Egyptian Christianity, A History of the Coptic Church, by Theodore. Hall Patrick, Fisher Park Press, 1999
11- Muslim Extremism in Egypt, The Prophet and the Pharaoh, by Gilles Kepel, University of California Press 1993
12- Ancient Egyptian Culture, published by Chartwell Books, Edison, N.J. 1998.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demiana:
Interesting,

Maybe in Egypt children should have less biased history lessons. As if the nation was Islamic since the Pharaonic times.
But then again, how can one turn public opinion towards this. I guess this ideas live mainly among coptic and other christians (as is my husband who still feels that arabs came to dominate his culture, language and religion). All too sensitive nowadays.

---

posted 18 November 2003 06:47 AM            

The word Copt just means Egyptians. Arabs and Byzhatines used it to refer to all Egyptian people wheater aminist or Christains.Most Egyptian Muslimes eventually became Islamic through gizya tax that was leveled on them and their country men,and overtime the entire country became Islamic.

However,the Upper Egyptians in Luxor,Aswan,and Asyut remained relativly isolated from Arab domination. Rual Egyptians,even to this day, retain much of the pharoanic culture that was present during antiquity. Traveling to rual Egypt is like having a time machine. Th Fellahin combined Al Islam with indigenous belief systems,so they conformed to meet their standards.

The rual Egyptians are no more mixed with Arabs than with any group of people. The Sa3eadi have never considered themselves Arabs. Many refuse to mix with the Bedway.

Are you away that the Coptics went around during the Greco-Roman period and destoyed precious artifacts of the ancient Egyptians? They scraped off temples,broke off noses of sculpture,and defiled their ancient ancestors. If all Coptics are desendants of the ancient Egyptians then why would they do such a thing? The rual Sa3eadi still use the temple for fertilty rituals that went on during the pharoanic period.

posted 18 November 2003 03:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sandal:
I agree with you. Egyptians are not Arabs. The Arab conquest of Egypt probably did more harm to Egyptians than good. Bla bla bla.

1400 years later, now what? How can we gather the pieces and move forward? Do you have any suggestions?

---

What is the difference between being American or being Arabs?

Who is true American, the Native Indian or the black or the White?

posted 18 November 2003 05:45 PM            

Not to insult Arabs,but we and Arabs are two different people culturally,spirtually,and physically. Personally,I feel there was nothing wrong with the ancient Kemetian relgion. The more I study about what spirtual poratices my ancestors had the more I relize how the Abrahamic faiths are nothing but pale rip offs.

By the way Cush,Somalis neither were stone whorsiphers or sun whorshipers. Neither were the Egyptians.

posted 18 November 2003 08:38 PM            

Thank you for your interest and contribution. The issue of national identity not only for Egyptians but for all those nations whose historical and cultural heritage, which have a wealth of positive and humanitarian values in them, have been pushed aside by the nonsense of religious bigotry and political correctness.
Today, a great danger threatens the existance of our nations as westerners try to dictate "our identity" to us as muslims because our being muslim (and being arab as a result) is better for their benefit and protection against possible come back of communism in the world!
Why Americans spread more than one million copies of Quran in southern states of former Soviet Union? Why Berzezinsky, the national security advisor of American administration during Carter presidency was preaching about islamic values to Taleban in Pakestan? Why Americans created Ben Laden and god knows who else to "spread" islam?
Egyptians, have tasted first hand results of this islamic (or better yet arabic) bigotry when a great man like president Sadat was assassinated by a brainwashed soldier in cold blood. We have seen other activities by islamic fundamentalists in Egypt which shows they have never given up and are waiting in ambush until they can get their hand on this great nation. Who knows what we will see from them if that happens. You maight have heard about Iran but I have seen it and experienced it, first hand and trust me, it is bad! it is worse than bad! I will tell you more on this issue later on but for now, let me tell you that What has happened in Iran is not very far from you if Egyptians do not relate to their national identity and national pride rather than the culture of hate which is propagated by ellements like Ben Laden and others like mullahs in Iran!

Dear Moshko

I like to express my appreciation for your insightfull post. unfortunately I have not been able to go through all of it yet but I have to inform you that I am very glad to see someone like you participating in these kinds of discussions. We need people like you and with your knowledge to remind us that Egyptian civilization did not lack any of humanitarian values before comming of arabs to their territory. Great job my friend! salute to you!

Dear Cush

There is a lot of difference! why arabs did not like to become Egyptians or Persians? why they destroyed anything which they did not "understand"? Europeans came to north america centuries ago but you still see that american idians, in most cases, have kept their identity and in many of the reserves, they only talk their own language.
What is the point of being a muslim or jewish or christian? what your god can do that others can not? what is the difference between your god and the god of those who worship sun? what damage from sun worshipers have come to the human community on this earth? what is the advantage of your god over hindus? Why anybody else other than followers of your belief are not going around blasting themselves and others with them? if you can keep an open mind, then I have some reading matterial for you and others!

CLICK HERE PLEASE

dear ausar

great response! thank you.

best regards to all

posted 18 November 2003 09:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Toofaan:
[b]Dear Monica

Thank you for your interest and contribution. The issue of national identity not only for Egyptians but for all those nations whose historical and cultural heritage, which have a wealth of positive and humanitarian values in them, have been pushed aside by the nonsense of religious bigotry and political correctness.
Today, a great danger threatens the existance of our nations as westerners try to dictate "our identity" to us as muslims because our being muslim (and being arab as a result) is better for their benefit and protection against possible come back of communism in the world!
Why Americans spread more than one million copies of Quran in southern states of former Soviet Union? Why Berzezinsky, the national security advisor of American administration during Carter presidency was preaching about islamic values to Taleban in Pakestan? Why Americans created Ben Laden and god knows who else to "spread" islam?
Egyptians, have tasted first hand results of this islamic (or better yet arabic) bigotry when a great man like president Sadat was assassinated by a brainwashed soldier in cold blood. We have seen other activities by islamic fundamentalists in Egypt which shows they have never given up and are waiting in ambush until they can get their hand on this great nation. Who knows what we will see from them if that happens. You maight have heard about Iran but I have seen it and experienced it, first hand and trust me, it is bad! it is worse than bad! I will tell you more on this issue later on but for now, let me tell you that What has happened in Iran is not very far from you if Egyptians do not relate to their national identity and national pride rather than the culture of hate which is propagated by ellements like Ben Laden and others like mullahs in Iran!

Dear Moshko

I like to express my appreciation for your insightfull post. unfortunately I have not been able to go through all of it yet but I have to inform you that I am very glad to see someone like you participating in these kinds of discussions. We need people like you and with your knowledge to remind us that Egyptian civilization did not lack any of humanitarian values before comming of arabs to their territory. Great job my friend! salute to you!

Dear Cush

There is a lot of difference! why arabs did not like to become Egyptians or Persians? why they destroyed anything which they did not "understand"? Europeans came to north america centuries ago but you still see that american idians, in most cases, have kept their identity and in many of the reserves, they only talk their own language.
What is the point of being a muslim or jewish or christian? what your god can do that others can not? what is the difference between your god and the god of those who worship sun? what damage from sun worshipers have come to the human community on this earth? what is the advantage of your god over hindus? Why anybody else other than followers of your belief are not going around blasting themselves and others with them? if you can keep an open mind, then I have some reading matterial for you and others!

CLICK HERE PLEASE

dear ausar

great response! thank you.

best regards to all

[This message has been edited by Toofaan (edited 18 November 2003).][/B]

---

European almost wiped out most of the native Indians, Arabs on the other hand have mixed with anybody they have come in contact with.

posted 18 November 2003 10:29 PM            

The first Arabs were called Himyarites in Yemen. The story of Hagar and Ishamel is just a Quranic legend with no historical basis.

posted 19 November 2003 04:55 PM            

What about them? Most of these people don't really consider themselves Arabs with the exlucusion of Iraqis,Palistineans.

Iraq contains: Chaldeans,Assyrians,Marsh Arabs,former African Slaves,Kurds,and some nomadic bedouins. Arabs have settled this region since the 600's with the Abbasaid Caliphte.

Palistineans contains: Eastern Medditereans,Bedouins[Arabs],possibly remanders of other groups like Philistines and Greeks.

Lybians are: Amazigh[Berbers],Bani Hilal,Beni Sulayim[both are Nomadic Arabs]

Algerians: mostly Amazigh[Berbers] with some Arabs that most live in the city. Most Algerians donot consider themselves Arabs.

Tunisians: are probally the most Arab out of all the Magrebians with some exceptions around Djerba Island which had Berbers. Possibly some Vandal ancestry to.

Morroccans: lots of Arabs,majority Amazigh[Berbers] with the main ethnic groups living both in the Sahara and the Atlas and Anti-Atlas mountains. Moroccoans are divided into Chueleh and Riffian. Both these groups are very nationalistic,and most reject Arab indenity. The Haratin are aboriginal Saharans from the Nelothic age that live in the Oasis areas of SOuthern Algeria and Morocco.

Sudanese: Nilotic types like Dinka,Nuer,Shulluk constrasting Nilo-Saharan types like Kenuzi,Dongolan,Fur,and a Nilotic minority called the Nuba. Don't confuse these two with Nubians.

Mauritanians: This country is divided by caste system that denotes a person's racial origin and status. The aboriginal people of Mauritania were black Southern Saharans named Bafour that would later become the Soninke people,Wolof people,and Mande people. The main ethnic groups are Zenaga,White Moors[Bidan],which desend from Yemani Arabs to this region during the Middle Ages. The dialect spoken is called Hussyani[sp] and it is Arabic. The rest are Fulani,Mande,Wolof,and other various groups.

posted 19 November 2003 05:02 PM            

Ethnically,No. Culturally,perhaps.

'' think that arab dialects from Maghreb are much more different from dialects from the Gulf and a culture of Magrebines is also very distinct, but does that mean they are not Arabs?''

I don't know who gave you such a narrow description of what an Arab is,but none of these people you mentioned with the exception of a few are Arabs. Amazigh[Berbers] would fight you if you called them Arabs. I dare you to call a Tuareg or a Kyabele these things.

Speaking Arabic does not mean you are an Arab!!! Arabs are people from the Arabian peninsula not Magrebians or Northern Africans.

'' know, big deal of Maghreb people still speaks their own berber language and among Cabyles is even very strong nationalist movement, but other speak arab dialects and consider themselves to be Arabs.''

Only because Arabic controlled schools much like Egyptian schools teach nothing about the ancient past of these people. No where in school circulum will you learn about Amazigh culture,but unfortunatley you are bombared by Islam,Arabization,and lies about the Arabic invasion.

posted 19 November 2003 05:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
''Are they Arabs or not? ''

Ethnically,No. Culturally,perhaps.

'' think that arab dialects from Maghreb are much more different from dialects from the Gulf and a culture of Magrebines is also very distinct, but does that mean they are not Arabs?''

I don't know who gave you such a narrow description of what an Arab is,but none of these people you mentioned with the exception of a few are Arabs. Amazigh[Berbers] would fight you if you called them Arabs. I dare you to call a Tuareg or a Kyabele these things.

Speaking Arabic does not mean you are an Arab!!! Arabs are people from the Arabian peninsula not Magrebians or Northern Africans.

'' know, big deal of Maghreb people still speaks their own berber language and among Cabyles is even very strong nationalist movement, but other speak arab dialects and consider themselves to be Arabs.''

Only because Arabic controlled schools much like Egyptian schools teach nothing about the ancient past of these people. No where in school circulum will you learn about Amazigh culture,but unfortunatley you are bombared by Islam,Arabization,and lies about the Arabic invasion.

---

This is very interesting stuff. I know very little about what it means to be Arab either ethnicly or culturally, but I do see your point Ausar. I didn't know that the regions mentioned were so nationalistic; I thought they all idendified with the "Arab" thing, but I guess these topics don't make it to the international news.

posted 19 November 2003 05:40 PM            

For instance,Sheikh Tahtawi,an Egyptian intellectual, chose to define himself and all Egyptians as not Arabs,but as a unquie people with a unique indenity. More people should read about him,and learn what he represented for all Egyptians.

posted 20 November 2003 03:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
''Are they Arabs or not? ''

Ethnically,No. Culturally,perhaps.

'' think that arab dialects from Maghreb are much more different from dialects from the Gulf and a culture of Magrebines is also very distinct, but does that mean they are not Arabs?''

I don't know who gave you such a narrow description of what an Arab is,but none of these people you mentioned with the exception of a few are Arabs. Amazigh[Berbers] would fight you if you called them Arabs. I dare you to call a Tuareg or a Kyabele these things.

Speaking Arabic does not mean you are an Arab!!! Arabs are people from the Arabian peninsula not Magrebians or Northern Africans.

'' know, big deal of Maghreb people still speaks their own berber language and among Cabyles is even very strong nationalist movement, but other speak arab dialects and consider themselves to be Arabs.''

Only because Arabic controlled schools much like Egyptian schools teach nothing about the ancient past of these people. No where in school circulum will you learn about Amazigh culture,but unfortunatley you are bombared by Islam,Arabization,and lies about the Arabic invasion.

---

Auser If Islam is an Arab religion than how come out of 1.6 billion muslim there are only 200 million Arabs. Auser you could say whatever you want about Arabs, but when you insult Islam by calling it Arabization you insult me and 1.6 billion muslims.

posted 20 November 2003 08:35 PM            

He claimed that he was a Prophet of God, and there was nothing unusual about his claim because:

"Every nation has its Messenger; then
When their messenger comes, justly,
the issue is decided between them, and
they are not wronged." (Jonah, X: 45)
This theme is also repeated in 2: 148. Obviously, a Prophet comes to a people to settle all their issues justly with the purpose of uniting them into a vigorous nation. However, according to the Koran, the effective way of securing national unity is through the appointment of a Kibla i.e. the direction of worshipping God: when all faithful adore the acknowledged Deity facing in the same direction, they demonstrate their oneness. This is the reason that hadith no. 20 of Bokhari, Vol. 6, says that every nation has its Kibla. It is also confirmed by the Koran.
The Prophet had declared Jerusalem, the most sacred Jewish City, as the Kibla for the Arab Muslims, but after treating it as such for about sixteen months, he changed it for Kaaba, a sanctuary of Mecca, the Prophet's hometown. I shall discuss the implications of adopting Jerusalem as the Muslim Kibla in the next chapter, but here I may add that this change was dictated by the Prophet's urge to serve his national purpose. The Koran, states:

"The fools among the people will say,
'what has turned them from the direction
they were facing in their prayers aforetime?'
Say, To God belong the East and the West
He guides whomsoever He will
to a straight path."
We have seen thee (Muhammad) turning thy face
about in the heaven; now we surely turn thee to a
direction that shall satisfy Thee (Muhammad)
Turn thy face towards the Holy Mosque (Kaaba);
and wherever you are, turn your faces towards it."
(The Cow, II: 135-40)
From these verses, it is clear that the change of Kibla from Jerusalem to Kaaba was affected by Allah not of His own will but at the solicitations of Muhammad, who was seen by Allah "turning thy face about in the heavens (skies)." The hadith no. 5903 (Muslims) shows that it was originally suggested by Umar, the Second Caliph, who was murdered by a Persian slave because he thought of him (Umar) as a racist.
Fancy Allah's argument here: "to God belong the East and the West." If the East and the West have equal significance, then why is He forcing people to change direction of prayer from Jerusalem to Kaaba? Why can't they face in the direction they like? This step was taken by the Prophet in the guise of Allah to serve the interests of the Arab Imperialism. In fact, the change of Kibla has exerted a disastrous effect on the Jewish destiny and may have lethal consequences for human history, too. However, it has been a great boon for the Arab Imperialism.

The Prophet Muhammad possessed tremendous political skills. Having said that every nation has its own Prophet, he asserted that it was different in his case because he was The Prophet not only for the Arabs but also for ALL nations:

"Every Prophet is appointed for his own nation but I
have been appointed the prophet for all nations."
(Mishkat, 5500, Vol.3)
When this claim of the prophet's universality is coupled with the change of Kibla from Jerusalem to Kaaba, then we realise the depth of Muhammad's wisdom. It means that non-Arab Muslims cannot have their own Kibla, which serves as the pivot of national honour and unity. They must treat the Arabian Kibla as their own Kibla and thus accept the Arabian law and culture to renounce their own national traditions. Do you know what it means in practice? Here is the explanation:
This act raised Mecca to the highest spiritual reverence. Muslims from all nations, both high and low, prostrate towards it, not five times a day, but every moment owing to the ever-changing time-zones of this planet. The act of habitual prostration enslaves their psyches, making them unconsciously obedient to Mecca; it decreases their power of reasoning, correspondingly increasing their intensity of faith, to worship the birth-place of Muhammad. It is amazing how Muslims beg Muhammad to intercede with Allah for His mercy both in this world and the world to come. Ordinarily one nation has to subdue another nation with the force of arms; the vanquished dislike the victor and want to be free, but in this case, all non-Arab Muslims shed tears of devotion to be accepted as the Arabian cultural slaves! Is it not a classical example of a lamb, begging the butcher to lead him to the slaughterhouse? This is the wisdom of Muhammad - may peace be upon him.

Being aware of human frailties, the Prophet exerted further psychological pressure on his non-Arab followers so that they must subordinate their own culture to that of Arabia. He achieved this goal by raising the spiritual prestige of the Arab institutions. Here is a brief account:

1. Kaaba is the House of God because the Almighty had commanded Adam to build it for Him, and it was also rebuilt by Abraham.

2. A Muslim's grave must be dug in a way that when his body is buried, it must face towards Mecca.

3. So sacred is Mecca that nobody must defecate himself facing this City. He who does so is a Kafir (infidel).

4. Allah speaks Arabic, and the Koran is also in Arabic, which is a very difficult language; all Muslims must learn it to be blessed. Fancy how biased Allah is in favour of Arabia.

5. The hadith no. 5751 (Mishkat, Vol. 3) reports the Prophet saying:

"Love the Arabs for three reasons because (1) I am
an Arab (2) the Holy Koran is in Arabic and (3) the
tongue of the dwellers of paradise shall also be
Arabic."
6. Kaaba is the centre of Allah's blessings because it is here that 120 Divine Benedictions descend every day, and are then distributed to the rest of the world!
7. Ibne Majah reports in hadith no. 1463, that a Namaz i.e. prayer in the Mosque-in-Medina brings 100 times more blessings than a similar prayer in other mosques, and a prayer in the Kaaba invokes 100,000 benedictions compared to a similar worship in other mosques!

8. Even the Arabian graveyards known as Jannat-ul-Mualla and Jannat-ul-Baquee are the most sacred. According to a hadith, they look shining to the dwellers of the skies the same way as sun and moon appear to the people of the earth. Those who are buried there, shall enter paradise without any accountability and each of them shall be privileged to intercede for seventy thousand people!

9. Read the following verse:

"(O Prophet) tell people if you really love
Allah, follow me, and if you act like this, then
Allah will love you, too, and He will forgive your
sins ..." (The House of Imran, III: 30)
When read with the hadith ( 5 ) quoted above, one comes to the conclusion that to be a Muslim, a non- Arab believer has to live as an Arab to qualify for Allah's love and pardon!
10. It is a part of the Islamic faith that every Muslim, no matter where he lives, must come to Mecca for pilgrimage, at least once in a life-time, provided he has the means to do so.

Over two million Muslims from all over the world come to Mecca every year to perform the Hajj ceremony. Probably, the same numbers gather there to observe the Umra rites during the year. These ceremonies generate so much wealth for the Arabs that, considering their population, they can maintain standards of living compatible with those of the Western Europeans.

The Hajj ceremony has been a part of the Arab culture from time immemorial; it has developed from the Indian principles of idolatry such as Trimurti, Sabeanism, local superstitions and Greek influences. There is no historical proof that the temple of Kaaba was ever rebuilt by Abraham. Even during the early times of Muhammad, it was the centre of idol-worship along with the age-old custom of kissing the Hajr-E-Aswad, which the Prophet encouraged because of its deep association with the Arab national culture. This pagan practice which appealed to the Arabs, certainly helped the Prophet to gain converts for his faith.

The Hajj ceremony belongs to the pre-Islamic times. It is as much representative of idolatry today as it ever was. People perform the rites of kissing the Black Stone including the seven circuits of the Kaaba, which are considered emblematical relic of the stars' revolutions associated with the traditions of the heathen Yemen.

What is true of Hajj, equally applies to Allah Himself. It was the name of the Chief idol of Kaaba associated with Quresh, the tribe of Muhammad. The Prophet's father's name was Abd Allah i.e. the servant of Allah for this reason. He retained this name for his God because of its appeal to the Quresh. Again, Allah was an Arabian God, and everybody swore by His name irrespective of religion.

By such schemes the Prophet bestowed a greater sanctity on Mecca than the Jews could ever associate with the Temple of Jerusalem. The divineness of Mecca imbued the Arabs with an aura of holiness, which was made distinct by such hadiths that all Muslims must love Arabia, and those who begrudge it, they shall be deprived of the Prophet's intercessory blessings, and thus rot in hell.

In this Master Plan of Arabism, the Prophet kept himself right on the top: even though he calls himself a mortal and the servant of Allah, it is Allah, who along with His angels, prays peace to Muhammad i.e. worships him. Therefore, love and obedience to Muhammad is the true Islam and Allah becomes a mere euphemism for Muhammad, who has such a strong grip on Him that belief in Allah means nothing at all without acknowledging Muhammad!

The best way of practising Islam is to treat Muhammad as the Model of Behaviour:

"You (Muslims) have had a good example in God's
Messenger ( Muhammad ) for whosoever hopes for
God and the Last Day."
(The Confederates, XXXIII: 20)
It means, imitating the Prophet even in minor details i.e. one must think, feel and act as the Prophet did; one must develop the same tastes and habits as the Prophet had; one must even eat, drink, talk, walk, sleep and look like him in dress and general appearance.
When we further ponder over the issue under discussion, it transpires that this doctrine i.e. the Prophet as the Model of Behaviour, is the true force, which makes Islam, the Self-Perpetuating Arab Imperialism because such a confession inspires a Muslim with the duty to treat the Prophet's principles and practices as his true guide of action. Here is a very brief sketch of the Prophet's basic principles and practices:

The fundamental principle of Islam is "divide and rule," which splits humanity socially and politically. It seeks to perpetuate itself through a permanent strife based on the distinction of Momin (the Muslim) and Kafir (the non- Muslim). The Koran in The Disputer, LVIII: 20, states this fact in undisputable terms: the non-Muslims have been labelled as the "Satan's Party" and the followers of Allah and Muhammad are designated as "God's Party."

Further, the Koran calls members of the "Satan's Party" as "despicable" and declares that "they are surely the losers" but about "God's Party," it adds:

"They are the people who do not love anyone who
opposes God and His Messenger, not even if they
were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or
their clan.... He (Allah) shall admit them into
Gardens underneath which rivers flow, therein to
dwell for ever, God being well-pleased with them,
and they well-pleased with Him. Those are surely
God's Party ... they are the prosperers."
For a clear understanding of these verses, the following facts may be noted carefully:
1. Members of the "Satan's Party" are bound to be losers. They are despicable because they do not acknowledge Allah and Muhammad.
2. Members of "God's Party" are the people, who do not love the opponents of Allah and Muhammad, even if they happen to be their fathers, sons, brothers or members of their nation (clan). These are the people, who will prosper in this life and shall be admitted into paradise in the next world.

Here is the permanent division of Muslims and non- Muslims based on everlasting social and political conflict, assuring the Muslims the final victory. However, a person cannot join God's Party until he completely severs his relationship with his parents, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters and countrymen, if they do not accept Islam: This is the bane of all non-Arab countries where Islam entered by virtue of sword, migration or propaganda. In such lands, it becomes the duty of all converts to Islam that they must accept the Arab cultural hegemony, that is, subordinate all their national institutions to those of Arabia, adopt Islamic law, learn Arabic and Arab manners; love Mecca and Arabs to acknowledge Muhammad as the Model of Behaviour because being an Arab he loved and enforced everything that was Arabian. Still worse, they must hate their own culture and motherland to such an extent that it becomes Dar-ul-Harb, i.e. a living battlefield. In practice it means that they must set up an opposite camp in their own motherland and fight their own countrymen until they all surrender to the Arab Cultural Imperialism by embracing Islam. It is then and only then that the country becomes Dar-ul-Islam i.e. the Land of Peace; otherwise it remains a battlefield (Dar-ul-Harb) where murder and rape of the non-Muslims ranks as good; lying, cheating and dishonesty are considered necessary evils and hence, form part of the indigenous Muslim morality. Motherland! What Motherland? The land of one's birth where one grows up, lives and finds the last refuge, is deemed as the biggest joke under the magic of Arabian influence. These non-Arab Muslims develop a special sense of contempt for their own cultures and motherlands under the pretence of believing in the Muslim nationhood, which is just a mirage, a misconception, a morbid condition of the mind.
To realise this truth, look at Egypt, the land of the mighty pharaohs, whose imperial excellence spanned over 3000 years. This wonderful land of science, art, culture and godly manners, came down with a thud to touch its nadir when Islam took over its destiny. There are no Egyptians anymore. They all have become Arabs!

Or go through the pages of the Iranian history. Their majestic rule lasted for many centuries. So great was their empire that it was not excelled in size and grandeur until the British appeared on the international scene some three hundred years ago. There is a good deal that they contributed to the development of the Roman law, Greek culture and Asian traditions. They produced spiritual leaders like Zaratushtra whose deliberations were to influence Judaism and Christianity. But when Islam invaded Persia, the Arabs seized all her riches through a well-conceived system of plunder, which also included beautiful, delicate women, the throbs of the Iranian poets, whose plaudits, praises and panegyrics had contributed richness to the traditions of chivalry both in Asia and Europe. Thereafter, Iran was no more. All its political and cultural glory was decimated by the Iranians themselves, who, as a result of the Arabian grafting, started hating their own culture, which has raised them to the pinnacle of glory. They wanted to be Muslims instead of Iranians to qualify for the beautiful virgins, the pretty boys and smooth wines, mentioned in the Koran. Changing their own prophets, Zaratushtra and Mani with blasphemy, they constructed a new mythology known as Shiaism, which is totally based on the logo, love and lore of the Arab heroes, especially the immediate family members of the prophet Muhammad. Since then, the Iranians have lost their ethos. Aversion to what Iran stood for, has deprived them of the greatness, which only one's own national traditions can guarantee. They are no longer the Iranians that they used to be. Nothing inspires them unless it is based on the sycophancy of Arabia. The recent Islamic Revolution of Imam Khomeni testifies to this truth.

India is yet another major victim of Islam. The day Muhammad bin Qasim, entered Sindh as a conqueror, must rank as the most ominous, odious and outrageous moment in the history of India, whose proud, pious and powerful traditions have been the torch-bearer of world civilisation. The Indians, used to enjoying the warmth of ahimsa, were stunned by the violence that the Arab raiders displayed in robbing the rich and seducing the indigenous damsels. Yet the irony was that they did all this in the name of the Most Compassionate and Just Allah, who counts these felonies as acts of fairness when they are committed to torture the unbelievers. Then, this land that had become indifferent to the vicissitudes of history owing to a very long period of prosperity and plentitude, was attracted by more Islamic predators, who rushed in through the Khaiber Pass to loot her wealth, dishonour her daughters and crush her ethos that had stood the test of time despite its proneness to physical comforts and spiritual mirages such as ahimsa.

It should be noted that the harm done by these murderers, looters and seducers as conquerors, may be forgotten, but the wound inflicted by their ideology i.e. Islam, which brought them to India, cannot be effaced from memory because instead of healing, this hurt has turned into an incurable abscess. Though 95% of all Muslims descend from the original population and the remaining 5% also qualify as Indians owing to their permanent residence over the centuries, they all want to be considered as a separate Muslim nation, dedicated to the belief that their motherland is a Dar-ul- Harb. It is this iniquitous philosophy, which caused the partition of India. What the Arabs failed to do themselves, the Arabian doctrine of Divide and Rule has done for them. This is why Islam is the self-perpetuating Arab Imperialism; it needs no swords, no guns: its hypnotic appeal, which mentally and emotionally reduces man to the level of monkey, serves as the Power to achieve the impossible.

One should remember that Islam is the ambassador of permanent religious, social and political strife; it declares:

"Fight those who believe not in God and the Last
Day ... until they pay the tribute out of hand
and have been humbled." (Repentance, LX: 25)
This readiness for war aiming at humbling the non-Muslims, has been the driving force of Islam, but it may cease to exist if there was another Prophet to come. Only fools will think that the Prophet Muhammad was not wise enough to be conscious of such a drawback. He not only saw it but plugged this loophole with his usual sagacity. He declared himself to be the Last of Prophets i.e. there would be no Prophets after him, and therefore nobody could change his Law of Strife based on the hatred of one's own motherland until it became Dar-ul-Salaam. Here lies the crux: a nation is liable to hatred, hurt and humiliation if it does not embrace Islam, but when it does, it becomes the cultural slave of Arabia because it has to renounce all its national traditions to accept Muhammad as the Model of Behaviour, which requires adopting the ways of Muhammad, whose every breath seems to have been devoted to the glory of Arabia. What an unbeatable stratagem of imperialism it is!
However, I ought to point out that this doctrine of the "Last Prophethood" contradicts the basic principle of the Koran, which claims that Allah sends Prophets to guide human-kind. See for yourself:

"Yet there shall come to you guidance from Me."
(The Cow, II: 35)
This is Allah speaking to Adam, who is being ousted from paradise for his insolence. This is what seeks to establish the doctrine of revelation through a Prophet. If people needed guidance before Muhammad through different Prophets during all ages, why should they be deprived of this blessing after Muhammad, whose message has been completely vandalised by his own followers to enhance their personal interests. Again, why could not Allah have sent only one Prophet for all times right in the beginning to avoid prejudices and wars that the faiths preached by different Prophets create? If there is God, He cannot even imagine this kind of mischief, which is destructive to His creatures. To be respectable, God must act in an honourable manner.
Since every culture has its own traditions, Prophethood, as a part of the Middle Eastern culture, has a validity for its own people. But thrusting it on other nations as Islam does for establishing Arab hegemony, is aggressive and undesirable. On the contrary, the Mosaic Prophethood is harmless because the Jews do not seek conversion through propaganda, persecution and promises.

posted 21 November 2003 12:35 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cush_R:
Auser If Islam is an Arab religion than how come out of 1.6 billion muslim there are only 200 million Arabs. Auser you could say whatever you want about Arabs, but when you insult Islam by calling it Arabization you insult me and 1.6 billion muslims.

---

posted 22 November 2003 09:27 AM            

This is evident that most Americans don't know a Bengali from an Arab. When 9/11 happened some crazed people started killing people like Sinkhs,Copts,and anybody else that they though sppeared to be an Arab. Americans have even ask me being from Egypt if I ever rode a camel.

I am going off my personal experiance,because I have lived in America most of my life. Anyway,this has very little to do with the topic.

posted 23 November 2003 02:47 PM            

I am not trying to hide anything from you or others! why should I?!
islam is nothing but an extension of arabic culture which has been used from the begining to deceive different nations and put them to sleep! My question to you is: why Americans preached islam in Afghanestan? why did they start their attack against commuist world (which has a lot more problems than western style democracy) by spreading millions of copies of Quran in southern states of former soviet union?! and the bigger why is: why islamic nations are all at the bottom when it comes to human rights, modernization and progress?! on top of that, why do you have to give up your national identity in order to be a moslem?
our nation like all others had their own religion (some still practice that old religion) that they had to give up because of the brutality and arab invadors but we were lucky enough that our ancestors were able to put on a great resistance and protect most of our cultural values, including our language which has been greatly influenced by arabic! what was the point of changing gods?! what islamic god can do for you which others can not?! and why did your nation had to give up their own language to become a moslem?!
Egyptians have had one of the shiniest civilizations in the region and in the world! why are Egyptians, like the rest of moslem world, are trailing the civilized nations in every thing which matters in modern world?!
Western world is benefitting from us staying "good moslems" as far as we accept all the values blindly and do not dig into sensetive issues! Do you know that Quran, very clearly allows you, as a woman being beaten by your man as part of punishment for not obeying him?! Do you know what is the source of women's repression and inferiority in islamic nations?! Do you know a woman could be stoned to death under islamic laws if three men swear that she had committed adultery?! Western conspiracy against the nations who willfully keep themselves in the web of inhumane laws of islam is a continous matter which we witness it's effects from Algeria to Pakestan and Malaysia! open your eyes! you do not need to be arab in order to have a religion! Egyptians have had their culture and religion long before arabs knew about anything beyond desert in this world! islam although it has coppied a manythings from christianity and judaism but it also has a lot of markings from arabic culture in it! I would suggest you read the last book authored by Sigmund Freud (called Moses and Monotheism) which explains the source of not only islam but all of famous religions of modern era! this book, although small in volume, is a great source with a lot of research backing it (most of them done in Egypt)!
Dear friend, being man or not, does not have anything to do with the issue that three of me can send you to your death just by swearing under the laws of islam which you defend! if you are not smart enough, westerners have a lot of Khalid Islambuli and Ben Laden for you in their sleves as they did khomeini for us! we made a big mistake and fell into trap! be carefull you don't!

regards

posted 23 November 2003 03:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Toofaan:
Dear freind!

I am not trying to hide anything from you or others! why should I?!
islam is nothing but an extension of arabic culture which has been used from the begining to deceive different nations and put them to sleep! My question to you is: why Americans preached islam in Afghanestan? why did they start their attack against commuist world (which has a lot more problems than western style democracy) by spreading millions of copies of Quran in southern states of former soviet union?! and the bigger why is: why islamic nations are all at the bottom when it comes to human rights, modernization and progress?! on top of that, why do you have to give up your national identity in order to be a moslem?
our nation like all others had their own religion (some still practice that old religion) that they had to give up because of the brutality and arab invadors but we were lucky enough that our ancestors were able to put on a great resistance and protect most of our cultural values, including our language which has been greatly influenced by arabic! what was the point of changing gods?! what islamic god can do for you which others can not?! and why did your nation had to give up their own language to become a moslem?!
Egyptians have had one of the shiniest civilizations in the region and in the world! why are Egyptians, like the rest of moslem world, are trailing the civilized nations in every thing which matters in modern world?!
Western world is benefitting from us staying "good moslems" as far as we accept all the values blindly and do not dig into sensetive issues! Do you know that Quran, very clearly allows you, as a woman being beaten by your man as part of punishment for not obeying him?! Do you know what is the source of women's repression and inferiority in islamic nations?! Do you know a woman could be stoned to death under islamic laws if three men swear that she had committed adultery?! Western conspiracy against the nations who willfully keep themselves in the web of inhumane laws of islam is a continous matter which we witness it's effects from Algeria to Pakestan and Malaysia! open your eyes! you do not need to be arab in order to have a religion! Egyptians have had their culture and religion long before arabs knew about anything beyond desert in this world! islam although it has coppied a manythings from christianity and judaism but it also has a lot of markings from arabic culture in it! I would suggest you read the last book authored by Sigmund Freud (called Moses and Monotheism) which explains the source of not only islam but all of famous religions of modern era! this book, although small in volume, is a great source with a lot of research backing it (most of them done in Egypt)!
Dear friend, being man or not, does not have anything to do with the issue that three of me can send you to your death just by swearing under the laws of islam which you defend! if you are not smart enough, westerners have a lot of Khalid Islambuli and Ben Laden for you in their sleves as they did khomeini for us! we made a big mistake and fell into trap! be carefull you don't!

regards

[This message has been edited by Toofaan (edited 23 November 2003).]

---

Since when have Muslim given up there national identity to be muslim.Islam unlike Christanity and Judism encorouges Muslims to keep their culture and heritage.
Could please point out where in the Qoran its say a husband is allowed to abuse his wife.

posted 23 November 2003 04:07 PM            

regards

[This message has been edited by Toofaan (edited 23 November 2003).]

posted 23 November 2003 04:24 PM            

islamic laws or, in fact arabic laws, are headed your way! take it or stand agaisnt it! you can not say that you know islam better than Ben Laden who is killing people in big numbers or the mullahs in Iran who are implementing islamic laws or the Taleban in Afghanestan who implemented sharia law or the ones in Saudi who implement the same laws!
http://www.jesusjournal.com/articles/publish/article_197.html
http://www.rawa.org/gallery.html

regards

posted 23 November 2003 05:05 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Toofaan:
this is what you will get from your arrogance if you continue to hide your heads beneath the snow!

islamic laws or, in fact arabic laws, are headed your way! take it or stand agaisnt it! you can not say that you know islam better than Ben Laden who is killing people in big numbers or the mullahs in Iran who are implementing islamic laws or the Taleban in Afghanestan who implemented sharia law or the ones in Saudi who implement the same laws!
http://www.jesusjournal.com/articles/publish/article_197.html
http://www.rawa.org/gallery.html

regards

---

Toofan this Egyptsearch.com not rightwingChristain.com.

posted 23 November 2003 05:50 PM            

I am not a christian! and I don't give a damn to either of religions if any of them imposes such barbaric and inhumane laws to members of a society! I have no doubt that public in any kind of society has to have some type of religion to hang on to! what I am trying to make you aware of is that, you do not need to give up your national identity in order to be a muslem or anything else! this is when the issue of islam being an extension of arabic culture (or better yet, arabic anti-culture) comes to play! I am sure you are keen enough to understand the difference!
if your islam (or christianity or even judaism) such a great belief in direction of eternal happiness of human being, then I am wondering why the world, while having these three wonderfull religions, still bears so much of suffering for mankind!

dear friend!

As I remember, I was born in a muslem familly (same as you) and although I have studied about other religions too but I have not found any reason to make myself property of this or that religion! unfortunately, I will be looked at as a muslem with a great potential for being a terrorist, thanks to the likes of Ben Laden and other islamists in Iran and elsewhere who want to impose islamic laws to humanity by blasting themselves or imposing the pleasure of lashing and stoning to people!
killing "non-believers" is a straight forward instruction given by quran in many of it's parts which is the source of justification for terrorist activities of those like Ben Laden and other islamist extremists!
.. returning to the issue that you raised earlier regarding popularity of islam, do you think whatever is more popular is good or better than others?! then why muslem nations are all most miserable nations of the world?
Do you know an Egyptian is the right hand of Ben Laden?! Do you know that one of your presidents who lead a great war against jewish state was a victimised by islamic extremists?!
I have no doubt that christianity, same as judaism, has it's own issues and problems but do Egyptian christians speak roman for being christian?! please refer to the subject of this topic! my position towards islam is because I consider it a tool which has been used by arabs in order to conquer other territories so they can loot their wealth and enslave their men and women at the time which they had nothing but camels and dates and a huge desert!

posted 23 November 2003 07:31 PM            

Personally,I am neither a Christain nor a Muslim,but I pratice the faith of my ancient ancestors. I know that the ancient Kemetians[Egyptians] had a concept of montheism way before any of these Abrhamic faiths existed. This is why I am confident in my ancestors and what they bring to me.

You asked a good question concerning where exactly the ancient Egyptians went to. The answer to that question is that the Egyptians never gave up their ancient customs. Go to the rual country side in Upper Egypt you will see that many ancient customs related to the ancient Egyptians still exist. Even the so-called Islam praticed by the rual Egyptians is sychrinized with traditional relgion. Unlike the Northern part of Egypt, the far south was never penetrated by Arabs,and much of the urban dwellers in Cairo never ventured to the southern regions.
I invite anybody that is interested in seeing ancient rites that persist in Egypt to go to rual parts of Egypt to reserch. This has already been documented in a book called Fellahin of Upper Egypt by Winfried S Blackman. The people in this region called Fellahin,Sa3eadi,or Baladi are the nearest forms of the ancient Egyptians you can get.

The Saidi dialect in Egyptian colloquial Arabic is very close to the ancient Egyptian tongue. Also the dialect is close to a Coptic dialect called Sahidic. Many linguist know this and document this. A book came out recently called ''From Pharoah's Lips: Ancient Egyptian Language in the Arabic of Today''
AHMAD ABDEL-HAMID YOUSSEF There are also 11,000 words in standard Egyptian arabic that still exist in all regional dialects of Egyptian colloquial Arabic.

Toofan said '' If that is the case then why are you, as an Egyptian, speak arabic rather than your own language?! ''

I respond: I agree with you Toofan that the Arabic invasion was nothing short of colonization. Many modern African people in Western Africa speak French,but does that make them French people? This is the same logic that is applied to the current situlation in Egypt. Since the modern Egyptian speaks Arabic or just a colloquial form of it he must be Arabic. However,I will say that much of the ancient Egyptian language still exists in rual parts of Upper Egypt. Also most of the language used in everyday speak of the Egyptians has an ancient Egyptian origin. This is widely know,but hidden from the general view.

Toofan said ''Which Egyptian festivals do you celebrate?! ''

Actually,Egyptians celebrate a festival called Shem El Nessim which has an ancient Egyptian origin. Many of the Mouled festivals of Sufi saints in both Lower and Upper Egypt are simply Islamicized verisons of ancient Egyptian rites. The annual festival of Abu Hagag is a modern verison of the Opet festival that occured in Ipet-resuyt[Luxor]. I realize that you might not be aware of these festivals,but they do exist.

Toofan said''Do you know an Egyptian is the right hand of Ben Laden?!''

Yes,to make things worse,he is a Sa3eadi like me. Many Baladi Egyptians joined the Taliban forces,and even had their own special unit. The Islamic organizations try to recruit poor Egyptians,so they can have an elite milllitary. Organizations like Gama'a Islamiyya were originally formed by poor Fellahin to pressute the goverment of Egypt to gain attention and rights. Know the goverment has put a stop to these organizations.

posted 24 November 2003 12:49 AM            

What does it mean to be ARAB?

What does it mean to be MUSLIM?

Are they one in the same?

Do Egyptians share the same cultural identiy as Arabs and/or Muslims?

Do egyptians share the same phenotype as the original arabs and or muslims?

I am from the Bahamas and we speak Egnlish because we were colonized by the British/English. We were British until 1973 and my grandparents have old british passports. We have some similar cultural aspects because the "captives" will alway absorb from the "captors". We have been "christianized". Does this make us British? Of course not! Does this make us Christian? Yes, because many of our people follow that faith (95%). We are a Christian nation by religion, but we are not British or English by culture; we are Bahamian. Some forms of our original African culture still exists today by the way even thought we have been "christianized".

I am not talking about whether or not Islam was good or bad because christianity was very barbaric as well. I just wanted to get the definitions clear. I don't know how most Egyptians feel about this issue.

We as Bahamian are in the process of discontinuing the Columbus Day Holiday and making it a Bahamian holiday "National Heros Day" where we honour BAHAMIAN historical figures and heroes, not old colonizers of the past. Like with many changes there are resisters and promoters. This is a heated debate in our country at present, but many people feel that we need to define our self and our won future rather than being defined by people who's only goal was to enslave and exploit us. By the way the race relations in the Bahamas is very good- much better than the USA so this debate about the holiday has nothing to do with race. I think nationalism is a good thing once kept in the right prospective.

posted 24 November 2003 05:11 AM            

Are Egyptians Arabians?
No, it is vice versa, the Arabians form one of the many Egyptian progenies that generated along the long extended history of Ancient Egypt. The Egyptian civilization is the first and oldest versed and documented civilization ever known to mankind. According to the chronology of the Egyptian ruling dynasties that are reported in Palermo Stone the Egyptian history dates back long thousands of years prior to the Pharaohnic dynastic era of Ancient Egypt, which started at nearly 4000 years BC. Some versed Egyptologists and savants of history date back the Egyptian civilization to 8000-15000 years BC. There is NO any other human documented and recorded civilization that date back to such immemorial time. The Ancient Egyptians were pioneers in every aspect of human life, including language and written texts. Stable Hieroglyphic writings date back to nearly 5000 BC. This means that AE Hieroglyphs were founded thousands of years earlier. Wonderfully, there is no ONE mistake or ambiguity we could find in the very ancient Hieroglyphic writings. This alone adds extended dimension to the pre-history of Ancient Egypt. The modern Egyptians do not speak Arabic, but it is the Arabians who do speak Egyptian! The Arabic language is only the formal part of the wide Egyptian language. This is quite logic since the Egyptian spoken and written language is based on bilateral phonetic words while the formal Arabic is based on trilateral phonetic words. This could be easily recognized by tracking the phonetic values of different AE Hieroglyphs (nearly 1000 basic graphemes) in addition to the 25 known basic AE Hieroglyphic phonemes. This means simply that the Egyptian language is the mother or the origin of the Arabic language. It is exactly like the English language is the mother or the origin of the American language. One cannot say that the English peoples speak American. It is again vice versa the American people speak English. The English civilization predates the American civilization by at least 2000 years. likewise, the Egyptian genuine civilization predates the imitated Arabian civilization by at least 8000 years!!
Wallis Budge, Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary EHD is a very important reference in which we find hundreds of Egyptian Hieroglyphic words and names that utter exactly like the corresponding Arabic words and names. This proves definitely that the AE Hieroglyphs are the origin of all Arabic words. Moreover, the Coptic names in Egypt before the Arabian invasion to Egypt were pure Arabic names. They never changed it either before or after the Arabian era in Egypt! When a modern Coptic man talks to his wife in private in bed at midnight, what language they speak? Is it Arabic? Is it Greek? Is it the claimed Coptic? No, it is the Spoken Egyptian Language which endured and prevailed during all the epochs of Egyptian history either before or after the Arabian or Roman-Coptic eras! It is only the written Egyptian language that has been changed. The AE Hieroglyphs have been extremely stable for long thousands of years until year 390AD when the Copts prohibited their use in Egypt. This means simply that the spoken Egyptian language was also stable during those long extended millenniums. Meanwhile the Copts preserved their Egyptian spoken language during the period 50AD up today. Some people think that modern Copts speak Arabic! No, the modern Copts speak the same Egyptian language that was prevailing during the period 50AD-640AD and up today. They never allowed themselves to speak Arabic. The decisive proof exists in their Egyptian names which utter exactly like Arabic words. This means simply that:

**the spoken Egyptian language has Never Changed One Bit since far pre-dynastic times and until today**

Best regards,
Ossama Alsaadawi

posted 27 November 2003 07:31 PM            

The pictures which I included in my post were intended to prove a point regarding the barbarian arabic rules which are heading towards your nation under name of islam! those pictures were depicting the nature of islamic rules in action and thier incompatibility with mentality of modern day human beings! what you saw in those picture were definitly offending me as human being but they do not diminish if I look away! editing a message which is intended to raise awareness about an issue with the excuse that they "might" be offending to some is justifying the censorship! With such mentality which is very common among the people who come from that region of the world, we should not be surprised by presence of westerners in Iraq to teach us about democracy!

The issue which I am trying to focus on under this topic is not related only to the great past of Egyptians and neither it is related to islam alone! the issue is, what Egyptians and other islamic nations have gained from giving up their national identity and culture to become known as an islamic or arabic nation since colonialisation by arabs who have not offered anything to the civilization on this planet other than barbarism?!
Stoning, lashing and amputation of body organs under islamic or arabic laws are offending to every human being and are disgrace to humanity in this day and age! my point was for you and others to see that with your own eyes and don't get surprised if you see that kind of laws being implemented in your land!
Recognizing and remembering your great heritage is very valuable if you make something out of it! no one expects Egyptians to go back to the days of pharaoh but it is sad to see that the people who were capable of creating such magnificent civilization in the past become another victim of political correctness and their own ignorance towards the issues which have made westerners the masters of modern world!
I did not post this topic in your forum! it was moved from another forum by the moderator for whatever reason! it seems you guys always find something to justify your actions whether it is something that "might" be offending to others or maybe someone prefers to talk about blond naked women in NY rather than a serious issue which relates not to the past but to the future of all nations in that region?!

posted 10 December 2003 09:01 PM            

Apparently there is an undeclared agreement among all not to get involved in the matters related to this topic!
It is most unfortunate to see a group of mostly well educated people of a nation which holds one of the highest positions in the mankind's civilization process prefer to just argue about what this or that tribe's role was at this or that point of history rather than getting into a discussion about a serious current issue! Our region is at one of the most sensetive times in it's life and Egyptians, along with most of other nations in that region are facing a very serious threat by the western society which is trying to use those nations as a shield for progressing and protecting their own civilization at the expence of keeping them in total darkness with the backwarded religion which has no respect for human dignity and humanity!
Wake up and smell the coffee! Egypt, along with Saudi arabia has had biggfest share of members in Al-qaeda which was originally created by American NSC to confront old Soviet empire! one of your presidents who did a great service to yout nation by not budging to western tricks which never intended to have peace in the region was killed by the same group of people who were mobilized to fight communism in Afghanestan! that was not because late president Sadat was a communist but because he did something that westerners did not like and that was making peace for his people and not allowing his nation to be manipulated by westerners for their profits!

beware! don't take the islamic movement which is an extension of arab imperialism too lightly otherwise you will lose everything that you know of your identity to theirs before you know it! and remember that most terrorists today come from islamic nations and those terrorists are trying to impose their belief on the whole humanity by evil force! apparently all those islamic nations live in paradise today and they want to share it with others!

regards

posted 03 January 2004 02:17 PM            

you raised an interesting issue which, at first, may look very simple but it is really a complicated matter.
Colonizing this or that nation by others who had more power at different points of history is nothing unusual in the history of mankind, the way that we know it!
One very important thing which we need to remember is that in most cases, colonizers and colonized have gained something of each other in that interactions (colonizers usually made more matterlialistic gains and colonized made ciltural gains) which have helped both parties in their future developments and this is true in majority of the cases. there is of course more to it which I hope some time later, I will have enough time to explore!

posted 03 January 2004 05:27 PM            

Education is a big contributing factor to why Egyptians view themselves as alien to their ancient culture. The schools really don't properly inform about what occured during the Middle Ages in Egypt. Infact,lies are often told that Egyptians peacefully excepted Islam,which can easily be reflected if you read the texts of John of Nikiu. The writtings of this Coptic bishop attests that the Arabic invasion in Egypt was indeed a forceful instruction. Also left out are various revolts of peasent Egyptians that were later sent to Bagdad to work as slaves. The same series of events occured during the Abbsaid Caliphte in Upper Egypt,and like the first revolt the revolters were sold off as slaves in the markets of Bagdad.

This history is very unsettling for Arab leaders who depend on Egypt to follow their every move. The truth will eventually have to come out about what occured in Egypt,and that majority of Egyptians are not truly Arabs. Once Egyptians begin to seek their past culture and heritage beyond Christainty and Islam,many will see how exactly the Arab world uses them for their own agendas.

One of the biggest victims in this are the rual Sa3eadi,and Fellahin that live from Middle to Upper Egypt. Many have endured a life of harsh treatment under various Arab tribes that were let loose in Egypt during the 13th and 14th centuries. This is also sad because the Fellahin and Sa3eadi preserve much of the ancient culture of the ancient Kemetians[Egyptians],and have not mixed with no foreginers;unlike the people who dwelled in the cities. These groups are even marginlized in modern Egyptian soceity because of years of harsh treatment and poverty they are forced to endure by these Arab tribes that have migrated to Egypt during the Middle Ages.