posted 04 January 2004 07:27 PM            

I appreciate your response and your honesty! whatever you mentioned about Egyptians is true about most of the nations in that region of the world (including Iranians) at least for last few hundred years! This is exactly the reason of my concerns and many others who are trying to find the root cause of all sufferings and misery which has been imposed on those nations for centuries! The mentality of accepting slavery for others and being exploited in order to survive!
I must say that I found your conributions on this board very interesting and valuable to the subject and I appologize for this unrelated topic in your forum but as you know, it was not me who brought the topic here and appreciate your understanding. Please feel free to contact me through e-mail at kooroshirani@hotmail.com if you like.

best regards

posted 09 January 2004 06:06 AM            

HELLO DEAR

posted 10 January 2004 07:36 PM            

I don't understand your point. could you elaborate please! My question is not about who is good and who is bad! the question is if you really know where you came from and what is so good about being an Egyptian?! what are you proud of and why?! why is it that a nation which has been so rich culturally during ancient times is part of
third world class nations now?! do you think the influence of arabic culture has had any role in this matter?! do you understand the reason behind the attacks of arabic conquerers to ancient Egypt?! and do you understand the results of it?! why do you think that Egyptians are arabs?! do you mean that Egytptians are the same people who used to live in Saudi Arabia?!

posted 10 January 2004 11:28 PM            

As I mentioned before,the schools in Egypt are big conspirators of helping Egyptians forget about their past very easily. Unlike other nations,Egypt is the only country I know of where children in Egyptian school donot learn about the ancient past. You go to other countries like Greece,Italy,and even in some Arab countries they emphatize the cultural past to achieve the future. I have never understood why Egypt is this way,but hopefully the new political party of Umm Al Masry is going to bring about a change.

What might be alarming to people is the fact that many Egyptians know well that ancient Egypt never died with the invasion of the Arabs in 640 AD,but continued to live in the very rual areas of Egypt. Even to this day you can see pharoanic rituals that accompany Islamic rites in perfect synchrenization. Khawags or foreginers have no idea when Fellahin,Sa3eadi,and Baladi Egyptians make salat,go to mosque on fridays,and celebrate Mouleds they are disgusishing anciet rituals from the long distant past. These cultural survials amung the rual people in Egypt is well documented in a book called Fellahin of Upper Egypt by Winfried S Blackman.

I guess the other reason why so many Egyptians indeitify with Arabs is because of Nasser, Nasser came about in Egyptian history when Egypt was recovering from the hegenmony of Turkish rule,so Egyptians had very little of a political foot to stand on. Nasser,being half Arab himself,deicided to champion the causes of Pan-Arabism that would give Egypt a political existence and pressence in the world at large.

posted 11 January 2004 06:26 AM            

Ausar it is unfortunately very common around the world for Indiginouse ancient history or even more common history prior to religouse "revolution" changes to be neglected in public or private school systems. In particular those countries that have been populated by others, which make up for a large number of countries in the western world, Although some countries offer these studies as further education.

RE: Australia were History after occupation by Europe is part of the curiculum in all schools, RE: Captain Cooks discovery of the country and the proceding ocupation. However 60,000 years of Aboriginal history is neglected. The same aplies to the Americas, North and South, New Zealand (Although New Zealand has included much more in recent years). India, Spain,(Canary Islands), Japan,(the Ainu, Japan until recent years even excluded the WWII). Turky, China, Korea, Indonesian Islands, Morocco, Algeria, Bosnia, Croatia, etc, etc, etc. There are many of them. Countries like Greece and Italy, fortunatley retain most of their origins and therfore are connected to thier history. I dont know if you have noticed though, but Italians refer to the Romans as Romans not Italians, Country Italians consider them as a people other than themselves but still part of their history and culture. That may not come out the way I mean it, but you have to see it to understand.

My point is that It is common around the world, and Religion is a major contibuting factor. When history is a threat to religion then this will be supressed. Or in relation to other countries were religion is not the contributing factor it is simply the history of the occupation takes precident. I have seen in the last ten years things have been changing in Aboriginal studies in many countries, but it is nowere near were it should be.

Regards

posted 12 January 2004 05:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Toofaan:
[b]egypt_cairo1?!

who used to live in Saudi Arabia?!

regards[/B]

---

posted 13 January 2004 11:47 PM            

I am an Egyptian myself living in America,and I would like to point out that not all Egyptians are cutlurally Arab. Lots of indigenous Egyptian culture still survives in enclaves in rual parts of Upper Egypt and the Baladi neighboorhoods in Cairo,so I take offence calling myself an Arab. Being a Muslim is not about being an Arab,because most people in Indonesia are Muslims but are not ethnically Arab. The arguments that all Egyptians are culturally Arab is a weak argument when determing who is an Arab and who is not.

To understand the question you must study Egypt from the Greco-Roman period leading up to the Arabic invasion in 640 AD. Looking at this period we discover that when the Arabs invaded there was only a total of 16,000 Arab armies. These few Arabs set up various camps in what is know Cairo that eventually developed into a cosmopolitan empire. However,in the vast rual areas of Upper Egypt were not pentrated untill about 13th and 14th centuries by nomadic Arabs let loose by the Mamelukes. When the Arabs did come incontact with the Fellahin,a bitter relationship of slave and master soon developed. Prior to this incident Fellahin were living very much like their ancient Egyptian ancestors.

Contrary to popular belief,the Islamic conversion of the Sa3eadi did not take away elements of the ancient Egyptians in their relgion. Often you will see rual Egyptians synchrinize their traditional relgion with the Abrahmaic faith of Islam. Other elements survive in Sufi orders and folk relgion. These pharoanic survials have been well documented by Western scholars like Winfried S. Blackman in his book Fellahin of Upper Egypt

Foreginers in Upper Egypt have existed for quite a while,but overall the Upper Egyptians remain the purest of the Egyptians because of their isolation. Unlike Cairo,the Delta,and Alexzadria,Upper Egyptians have abosrbed less foreginers. The only foreginers in Egypt are a few Arab tribes like the Hawara,Afshaf,Bani Hilal,and Horobat. The Hawara and Afsfaf mostly live in Asyut;while the Horobot and another tribe called the Jamashah live in the areas of Luxor and Quena. Overall the mixture with these people has been minimal at best. Most people from Asyut to Aswan look very different from Arabs that live in the gulf countries.

During the Arab Caliphte in Egypt,the Arabs had a policy called Mawali that forbid foregin Egyptians from mixing with the Arabs. This policy extended over the Magreb to Persia. This same policy also dictated that all non-Arabs must submit to Arabs and become their customer without any choice. So being an Arab during the Middle Ages was determined by purity. Even today,the Hashemites in Jordan claim to be the purest Arabs,and most certainly don't consider Egyptians to be real Arabs.

Many Sa3eadi since the days of the oil boom have moved to many regions of the Gulf countries only to find they are treated very badly. Of course this is the same with most foregin workers,but Egyptians are looked down upon by Gulf Arabs as being simply just cheap labor. I know this for a fact because I have many family members who have told me about their experiances in countries like Iraq,Baharain,Qatar,and United Arab Emirates. It matters very little to these Arabs that Egyptians consider themselves to be so.

posted 14 January 2004 03:10 AM            

quote:

---

At first the fighting was done only by the bedowin Arad
warriors,lured on by the booty of the luxurious empires they were
destoying,they did not settle as owners of the lands they had
taken,but went on seeking further conquests. At this stage the Arabs
formed the the ruling class amung Muslims;the Islmacist state was
essentially an Arab confederation. The idea that non-Arabs should
become Muslims ,although clearly sationed by the Koran,was still so
unfamilar that any convert who was not a full member by descent of an
Arab tribe had to become a mawali,or clients,of one of them.
Persians,Egyptians,Berbers of Northern Africa and even Arabs by blood
and language who had failed to prove their full membership of the
dominant caste became mawali. Page 40
In theory they were treated equal to the 'pure' Arab Muslims but
impratic they were treated with contempt by these Arab warriors and
for some time denied more than a residual share in treasure accuired
by their conquests.
Page 40
This is how the confusion over the term 'Arab' first arose. Members
of the imperial ruling class were proud of being Arab,however dialute
their Arab ancestry might be. But they were also inclined to refer
disparaginly to those tribesmen who retained their nomadic way of
life and refused to settle diown,[The contemptous attiude was
cordinally reciprocated.] In some parts of the Arabic speaking ,such
as Egypt,the wider tense of the term Arab,that is someone of Arab
culture,was virtually forgotten. In the ninetenth century un Egyptian
Arab was a nomad or semi-nomad who inhabited the desert or the
frideges of the Nile Valley. the wider meaning was only revived in
the twentith century with the reinassaine of Arab nationalism,when
Egypt took up it's natural position as the most powerful of the
indepdent Arab state. However,the suggestion that Egyptians 'are not
really Arabs is still heard if with diminishing frequency.
Page 47
Peter Mansfield
The Arab World: A Comprehensive History
by Peter Mansfield.

---

this further elaborates the rual Upper Egyptian Fellahin that were disconnected from the Urban metropolis of Cairo during the Middle Ages. These communites remained rual and never mixed with foreigners like the city dwellers.

quote:

---

Arab writters on the rual Egyptian Fellahin during the Middle Ages
While the villages live on in their enclosed world,almost untouched
by the influence of Islam,the cities were the product of the great
medevil Islamic civlization which was essentially urban. The city
dwellers depised the Fellahin and had almost no contact with them
excepot in the purchase of their crops. It is no exgeration to say
that the citzens of Cairo felt more in common with the inhabitants
felt more in common with the inhabitants of Damacus or Bagdad than he
did with a Egyptian fellahin. All the Arabic litterature of the
period belongs to the cities and provides no insight of the country
side.
Page 100
The Arab World: A Comprehensive History
by Peter Mansfield.

---

posted 16 February 2004 08:40 AM            

UNDEAD

YA SALAAM!!!

YOU ARE ... ABEET!

YES, THE MAJORITY OF EGYPTIANS DON´T LOOK ALIKE THE MAJORITY OF "BLACK" AMERICANS AND SUDANESE ARABS, BUT SOME DO! MAINLY IN THE UPPER EGYPT, AYWA WALLA LA?!? MAYBE, YOU ARE WHITE AND VERY DIFFERENT FROM THESE ONES, I DON´T KNOW, BUT YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE 70 MILIONS OF THE EGYPTIANS AND MAJORITY IS NOT WHITE!! MAYBE, THEY ARE MOST CAUCASOID THAN "BLACK", YES, THAT´S TRUE, BUT THERE ARE SOME NEGROID ABORIGINAL ELEMENTS IN EGYPT WHICH ARE UNQUESTIONABLE!!! ONE MY EGYPTIAN FRIEND, AND HE IS RATHER LIGHT THAN DARK-SKINED, SAID ME THAT THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE DARK, AFRICAN NATION, YA´NEE, THEY HAD SOME AFRICAN FEATURES AND THE UPPER EGYPTIANS ARE THEIR DIRECT, UNMIXED DESCENDANTS!!! HE SAID ME ALSO THAT IN THE EGYPT, THERE IS A FEW OF LIGHT-SKINED PEOPLE.AND THAT´S TRUE. AT PRESENT, THERE ARE VARIOUS PHENOTYPES IN THE EGYPT, AND NO EGYPTIAN CAN TO SAY: "WELL, I AM ´WHITE´(OR ´BLACK´) AND MAJORITY OF MY NATION IS ALSO ALIKE ME, SO WE ARE ... NO, YOU EGYPTIANS ARE VARIOUS!!!
http://www.kevinclarkphotography.com/egypt.html
http://www.gabrielopenshaw.com/EgyptFarafra.html
http://www.gabrielopenshaw.com/EgyptBahariyya.html
http://www.gabrielopenshaw.com/EgyptCairo2.html

I HATE IGNORANTS, BOTH BLACK AND WHITE(ETC.)!!!

KHALAS!

posted 07 March 2004 11:05 PM            

I find your post rather interesting! you seem to have an easy resolution to every problem! I wonder why every one else is not able to see such simplicity in this matter?! one thing which you might have missed is that the question is not if Egyptians are white or black! the question is about what happened to the historical and cultural hearitage of Egyptians?! what happened to their language?! and why?! all experts in the world who have studied racial history of the mankind and different ethnic groups believe that arabs were those who lived in deserts of Saudi and had a certain way of living!
based on your short hand analysis and rapid conclusions, all French speaking Africans are French and all English speaking Asians are British! I would say that is very convinient way of thinking but not neccessarily correct! I would love to hear more from you about your solid arabic links hopefully when I come to visit next time.

multisphinx!

I enjoyed reading your post! I do not understand why are you so offended?! suppose your numbers are all right and I can even add to them and let's make the whole world 100% "moslems"! now what?! wiil the whole world be living like you do in Egypt?! or Saudi arabia?! will the whole world be speaking arabic to make it easier for allah to understand them?! if not then why you should pray in arabic?! if ther was no need to be arab then how and why did Egyptians become arabs?! why they did not turn Romans or Persians?!

posted 20 March 2004 11:43 AM            

you amaze me in some ways but let's not talk about that now! from your message above, not only I could not see any answer to the questions but some more questions came to mind! you said there is only one god but I wonder why that single god created different religions?! if the ones prior to islam had shortcomings then whose fault is it?! and how do we know that islam does not have any problem if the previously created religions by god had some flaws in them?! I still don't understand why egyptians had to become arabic speaking and relinquish their cultural heritage all together after coming of arabs to their land?! was that done valuntarily?! for what reason?! is it normal for a whole nation to change their language and forget all their cultural heritage all of a sudden?! even in north america which Brits, French and Spanish brutally supressed the aboriginal residents, they managed to keep their language and tradtitions alive although they learned the language of invadors and colonialists!

p.s. I do not understand arabic language

posted 20 March 2004 01:01 PM            

The language spoken by the modern Egyptians,especially in Saeed,is very unique in gramamatical structure and even assorted phrases and words survive from anttiquity.

Egyptians never adopted Christainty,Islam,or any other alien Abrahmaic faith without force. The exception is the Sufis in in Upper Egypt that was brought there from El Minya to Luxor. Remeber also that the folk religion of the peasent Egyptians bears more in resemblence to traditional African based religion which was also reflected in ancient Egypt. Most rural Egyptians don't pratice orthadoux Islam but highly syncretic folk religions. Understand also the moulids in Sufism also take the places of the traditional religious ceremonial festivals along the Nile in Egypt. This is simply a fact stated.

I have no reservations about Islam,Christainty,or any other religious doctrine,but I believe that modern Egyptians don't really pratice any of these religions in accordance to standard orthdoux norms. Most Khawagas[foreginers] are unaware of the traditions.

Anyway,I hope this sets many things straight. Try reading some books about Late antiquity Egypt and your answers will be answered the best way possible.

posted 20 March 2004 05:59 PM            

I understand your point but do you deny that arabic is the dominant language not only in Egypt but also in most of northern African nations! It's good that some smaller ethnic groups have been able to hold on to some of their rich cultural heritage (in fact, it is admirable and great!), but to the world, Eyptians are just another arab nation because there is no sign of their non-arab past in anything, except their museums!
If some ethnic groups have been able to preserve part of Egyptian's historical and cultural past traditions and values then why is it not promoted through out the nation and why Egyptians are passively accepting their new arabic identity and a great nationalist leader like Naser became the rep of pan-arabism rather than pan-Egyptianism?!

posted 20 March 2004 06:13 PM            

Just like the Persians have Nawruz,we Egyptians have our national festival Shem El Nessim that goes back to pharoanic times.

Alot of the elite in modern Egypt are not ethnic Egyptians at all but actually desendants of Pashas.

posted 24 March 2004 12:48 PM            

Mohammed Abdu,Sheikh Tahtawi,and others clearly defined themselves as simply being Egyptians and proud of the fact they were. Tahtawi was really the first to define who and what the Egyptians were.

My concern is documenting pharoanic culture that still exists amung the rural Egyptians however obscure it might be. This should gain attention from wider scholars in Egypt and is worthy of a book. I doubt you will ever see such a publication due to Egypt's firm embrace of Arabism as a political entity.

posted 27 March 2004 07:29 PM            

I have stated the reason for my questions a few times in earlier posts but for your information, I am just trying to understand the reasons behind so much misery in the part of world which moslem nations make a good majority of it! I want to know what happened to the nations in that part of the wolrd who were once pilars of civilization on this planet but today, they are trailing civilized world centuries after coming of Islam and acceptance of arabic culture in their lands!
Arabs were never leading the world in anything except barbarism and chaos! their so called message of peace was imposed on other nations (including Egyptians) with the force of sword and enslavement of the conquered nations! it's true that arabs have been mixed with native people in the territories which they attacked but accepting this is different than saying Egyptians, who were a lot bigger population than arabs, became a minority in their own land!
My friend! you should be proud of being an Egyptian whose ancestors have made great contributions to the whole community of human beings on this planet! Egyptians, Persians and Romans (today's Turkey as part of it) have started their descent right after being conquered by arabs whose motives were not to bring peace and brotherhood but to loot and enslave the rich nations and take possession of ready made civilization and make luxurious palaces and live luxurious lives in cities instead of staying in deserts with snakes and reptiles! Egyptians, as well as Romans and Persians all became moslem nations but from all of those, It is only Egyptians who turned into and remained arabs! that is just another loss on top of others! in my belief, Egyptians, Romans (Turkish), and Persians should become more aware of their true national identity and work in direction of freeing themselves from being clsoed minded slaves of an ideology which has been nothing but for demoralizing of the people and keeping them with the mentality of slavery and away from being progressive, creative and innovative!

regards

posted 27 March 2004 07:49 PM            

I like to thank you for all the information that I have gained through your valuable contributions under this and other threads! My e-mail address is sohrab@excite.com which I have put in one of my posts earlier too and I would be more than glad to here from you and see those links!

regards

posted 29 March 2004 06:54 PM            

Up untill the 14th century,the Sa3eadi[Upper Egyptians] remained isolated from the governing populace,so most Egyptians also wheater in Upper or Lower Egypt lived by rural substence farming and trading their goods to the people in the cities.

The Mamelukes later in the 14th century displaced many Arab tribes further south in places like Sohag and Girga. The Hawara tribe as they were called wrecked havoc upon the Egyptian population often raiding villages and kidnapping women. For the most part the Egyptians in the countryside didn't adopt Islam untill later,and it was most a synchreinzation of Sufism and traditional pharoanic beliefs. Upper Egyptians were converted to Al-Islam by a Sufi saint named Abu'l Hagag. His mouled enacted every year is similar to the Opet festival in pharoanic times.

posted 01 April 2004 01:10 PM            

Plenty of people feel like me but are afraid to speak up against the very Egyptian goverment. Fortunatley a new political party Umm Al Masry is coming into power to establish a new understanding connection modern Egypt with their true pharoanic roots of the past while still substanting itself in the ''Arab world''.

Just like in pre-columbia American soceities like the Maya,the indigenous Egyptians still exist and have synchrinized their religion much like the Maya have catholcism.

posted 02 April 2004 01:43 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Up untill the 14th century,the Sa3eadi[Upper Egyptians] remained isolated from the governing populace,so most Egyptians also wheater in Upper or Lower Egypt lived by rural substence farming and trading their goods to the people in the cities.

The Mamelukes later in the 14th century displaced many Arab tribes further south in places like Sohag and Girga. The Hawara tribe as they were called wrecked havoc upon the Egyptian population often raiding villages and kidnapping women. For the most part the Egyptians in the countryside didn't adopt Islam untill later,and it was most a synchreinzation of Sufism and traditional pharoanic beliefs. Upper Egyptians were converted to Al-Islam by a Sufi saint named Abu'l Hagag. His mouled enacted every year is similar to the Opet festival in pharoanic times.

---

posted 02 April 2004 02:09 AM            

Yes,mainly due to body structure and facial features. The Hawara and other bedouins live in special districts of the village called nag .

See the following:

Race hatred ,between the Arab and Fellah,through lulled by common lives and common interests, never completely disappears and furnishes the explanation of many a village drama.

the Arab scorns agritcultural tradition and the fellah. This scorn goes back to the earliest times.
Mention of rural life ,always present in the Gospels,is absent in the Quran,and for the conquering Arabs the countryside remained for long the abode of infidels and tax payers.

page 112

First published in France in 1938 under the title Moeurs et Coutumes des Fellahs

first English translation Published in Cairo in 1945

New English translation with revisions by the author published by Beacon press in 1963
copyright 1963 by Beacon Press

Published simultaneously
in Canada by
S.J. Reginald Saunders
and Company ,Ltd, Toronto

Henery Habib Aryout
The Egyptian Peasent
Translated by
John Alden Willams

In the region of Dahna,between Qena and Girga,the Hawaras and the fellahinregarded each other with profound hatred. A meeting ,a carless word,would give way to bloodshed,and the spite existing between the two stocks led in 1947 to a small-scale war.

page 112

First published in France in 1938 under the title Moeurs et Coutumes des Fellahs

first English translation Published in Cairo in 1945

New English translation with revisions by the author published by Beacon press in 1963
copyright 1963 by Beacon Press

Published simultaneously
in Canada by
S.J. Reginald Saunders
and Company ,Ltd, Toronto

Henery Habib Aryout
The Egyptian Peasent
Translated by
John Alden Willams

As we have seen,up to the nineteenth century the land and its cultivators belonged to the state and a few land owners. The Fellahin had no reason to live on farms,the more so as they were exposed to the raids of brigands and plundering Arabs.

page 88

First published in France in 1938 under the title Moeurs et Coutumes des Fellahs

first English translation Published in Cairo in 1945

New English translation with revisions by the author published by Beacon press in 1963
copyright 1963 by Beacon Press

Published simultaneously
in Canada by
S.J. Reginald Saunders
and Company ,Ltd, Toronto

Henery Habib Aryout
The Egyptian Peasent
Translated by
John Alden Willams

Villages can be classified according to the importance. The district centers[markaz]--the marketing places or centers of pilgrimage--- are large villages or even small towns where they have other occupations and instituions,such as banks,courts,police stations,railways center,shop area,hospital as well as a club for the white collar class. The detached but still depdendent hamlets,such as the 'izbas' of the big land owners,and the sedentary Bedouin settlements,nag, on the edge of the desert,are at the other end of the scale.

page 90

First published in France in 1938 under the title Moeurs et Coutumes des Fellahs

first English translation Published in Cairo in 1945

New English translation with revisions by the author published by Beacon press in 1963
copyright 1963 by Beacon Press

Published simultaneously
in Canada by
S.J. Reginald Saunders
and Company ,Ltd, Toronto

Henery Habib Aryout
The Egyptian Peasent
Translated by
John Alden Willams

The fellah is a sturdily built man,though rarely stout. His skull and face are broad,his forehead narrow,his eyes dark and hair curling. He has rather prominent cheeckbones,athick nose,full but seldom protruding lips and a heavy jaw. His features on the whole are rugged but not ill-favored,and are neither very sensitive nor expressiive. His thick wrists ,ankles,and neck distinguish him the supple Bedouin. His back is rounded,his shoulders not so much sloping as bent toward his chest and his hips are narrow. he has rather large flattish feet,and is rarely tall,his average height being about 5 feet,6 inches.

page 66

First published in France in 1938 under the title Moeurs et Coutumes des Fellahs

first English translation Published in Cairo in 1945

New English translation with revisions by the author published by Beacon press in 1963
copyright 1963 by Beacon Press

Published simultaneously
in Canada by
S.J. Reginald Saunders
and Company ,Ltd, Toronto

Henery Habib Aryout
The Egyptian Peasent
Translated by
John Alden Willams

First published in France in 1938 under the title Moeurs et Coutumes des Fellahs

first English translation Published in Cairo in 1945

New English translation with revisions by the author published by Beacon press in 1963
copyright 1963 by Beacon Press

Published simultaneously
in Canada by
S.J. Reginald Saunders
and Company ,Ltd, Toronto

Henery Habib Aryout
The Egyptian Peasent
Translated by
John Alden Willams